Finally, a movie that depicts the last day of Christ's life in a realistic manner.
Mel Gibson has gone against the flow of Hollyweird, stepping out to produce and direct The Passion, a project that has been close to his heart for many years. This movie depicts the last 12 hours of the life of Jesus Christ. And it isn't going to be easy to watch.
Just about every Jesus flick I have seen shows Him with a little dribble of blood here and a few lashes from the whip there. But that isn't how it happened. Read The Science of the Crucifixion for a look at what really happened to Jesus on the final day.
Even more interesting is that Jesus speaks Latin and Aramaic without the aid of subtitles! Talk about making it genuine!
Mel is catching TONS of flack for this film. The Jewish Defense League isn't happy with the portrayal of the Jews in the movie, and are calling Mel anti-Semitic. And there are Catholics that are skeptical the movie will conform with the four Gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Gibson has assured the church that the script does conform to the Gospels as originally written. And the anti-Semitic charges are ludicrous, as the movie portrays the account accurately. There were Jews who did good things, and there were Jews who did bad things. I believe my Jewish brothers and sisters just don't like the fact that Mel has made this movie at all. The less they hear the name "Jesus" mentioned in the public square, the happier and less-threatened they feel.
It is Mel's faith that I find inspiring. While I disagree with Roman Catholic theology, I am not one to judge which Catholics are Christian or not. That is between them and their Creator. But from what I read about Mel Gibson, it seems like he is the real thing.
I, for one, am very eager to see what Mel has created. He is a great actor and a wonderful family man. He is also courageous enough to do what he wants to do in spite of the potential blackball from Hollywood. Way to go, Mel. Here's hoping your movie does justice to the story of Christ's love and suffering.
It's Del.icio.us!
Furl It!
July 7, 2003 10:46 AM
I am in aw of what Mr. Gibson is doing. I believe this movie is going to show the reality behind the death of Christ. Maybe it will show people the love of God as well. God bless Mr. Gibson's strength and courage in doing this.
July 7, 2003 10:45 PM
I commend Mr. Gibson as well. I'm interested in
how much he will be able to get across, for those
interested in knowing more about what crucifixion
consisted of I would recommend doing a search
under "physical death of Jesus Christ" or the
"medical aspects" of it. It's very humbling to realize the hell Jesus went through; no doubt
that crucifixion was a conceived idea straight from the pit of hell.
July 22, 2003 08:41 PM
I have to say I am a huge fan of mel gibson I have seen every movie he has been in, And I am extremely excited about his latest work, maybe by people seeing what Jesus went through for us, people will think more about there own mortality and cause the to seek our Lord and Savour.
July 23, 2003 11:13 AM
For those who still try to accuse Mel Gibson of anti-semitism - when we speak of Jesus Christ, second person of the Holy Trinity, and His being put to death by the Jews, we also acknowledge He Himself was born a Jew. We still today acknowledge in the Church our Jewish roots. Some of our practices in the Traditional Church today commemorate our Jewish origin. I agree with the comment in your article that such accusations come from those who cannot stand the Holy Name of Jesus to be spoken in public. Such people are the spokesmen for Lucifer who has become very active with his minions. God Bless Mel Gibson.
July 27, 2003 04:38 AM
"...we also acknowledge He Himself was born a Jew".
... and died a Jew. And probably looked like a modern-day Palestinian.
How many blond anglo Christs have we already seen speaking the mellifluous English of the King James Bible? I'm really looking forward to this movie. I think Gibson should be applauded for this attempt at authenticity.
August 1, 2003 05:40 AM
Its true that the truth always hurts and this is exactly whats happening !!! The voices of hell are screaming and trying to prevent a good thing from happening. I believe by the power of God's word this movie will reach where no movies have ever reached before......My special prayers and thanks to all people, especially, Mel Gibson for this great effort.
August 1, 2003 05:56 PM
You can tell how authentic it is, how powerful it is, by listening to the storm that Satan is tossing at it. The harder it is for Mel to make, the louder the critics, the more likely it is to be true.
Having seen the trailer, I have to say, it brings me to tears.
August 1, 2003 08:21 PM
I get chills just thinking about how awesome this movie is going to be. I can't wait to hear my Lord's words as he spoke them in Aramaic. I cried after seeing the trailer. That final, intense and beautiful image of Mary stomping the serpent is art that rivals Michelangelo's Pieta. Mr. Gibson is a genius!
August 2, 2003 05:20 AM
"You can tell how authentic it is, how powerful it is, by listening to the storm that Satan is tossing at it."
Jewish folks are worried about the resurgence of something that has gotten them killed over centuries, namely, the "Christ-killer" charge and this is what we come up with?
August 2, 2003 07:41 AM
I can't wait till Passion is released. Its about time the world relived and moved into a new age of devotion to Jesus instead of war and conflict that exists now. Mel Gibson has all our support he is doing the right thing.
August 2, 2003 05:03 PM
"...This is the Testimony, God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1st John 5:11-12) I hope that this movie is used to spread the truth of Jesus' matchless love to all those who do not know it. Only Jesus is the hope of life! Way to go Mel.
August 2, 2003 05:14 PM
The air of authenticity in this film is a sham. Some of the details are absurd: All evidence shows the Roman authorities in Judea spoke Greek, not Latin. That's a lot of effort expended in the wrong direction.
But far more importantly, any effort to make a film based on all four Gospels would be a disaster. The Gospels contradict each other in ways that are possible to ignore or resolve.
Will the invention of the Eucharist be included, despite the fact it does not appear in John? Will the ascension be included despite it only being included in two of the four gospels -- Mark and Luke?
Will Jesus answer the charges, as he did in John, or will he say nothing, as he did in Matthew?
Will Judas betray with a kiss? Or will they eliminate that detail, as John did?
Will Jesus be crucified during Passover -- as in Matthew, Mark and Luke? Or before Passover, as in John?
Which of the four different inscriptions will be written above his head on the cross?
Will Mary attend the crucifixtion, as in Mark? Or will she not, as in the other three?
Will the naked young man of Mark 14:50-52 appear? Or not, as in the other three?
And which of the death utterances will be used?
And so on.
Best of luck,
Pace
August 3, 2003 11:53 AM
The Gospels contradict each other in ways that are possible to ignore or resolve. Well for one, the gospels were all written by different people, as you know...Whcih therefore means what each person saw/thought could and was different....As in...
"Will Judas betray with a kiss? Or will they eliminate that detail, as John did?"
Maybe the writer of the other Gospels were around when Judas betrayed, him, and John just left out that fact because he didn't find it important...
"Will Mary attend the crucifixtion, as in Mark? Or will she not, as in the other three?"
"Will the naked young man of Mark 14:50-52 appear? Or not, as in the other three?"
Once again, it would be possible mary and the naked young man and for the other Gospel writers not to see it, i know if i was watching the Crucifixion, i wouldn't care who was around, i would just stare and cry.
I get what you are saying, but i wouldn't call it "contradictions" i would just say its what is left out in other gospels, was added as saw by the writer in others.
August 3, 2003 01:42 PM
You wouldn't bother to notice if the Holy Virgin Mary, mother of God, was standing next to you or not? Come to think of it, you wouldn't bother to notice if the mother of the guy who was being killed was standing next to you or not? You wouldn't notice what charges were written above Jesus' head?
You wouldn't notice what day it was?
In any case, it's basically agreed upon that the gospels were written at vastly different times. Many historians consider each one to be a revision of ones that came before it. Which is fine, but my point -- as I'm sure you saw it -- was that making a literal depiction of the gospels would simply produce a Rashomon effect confusing the heck out of the poor viewer. Whether Jesus answers the charges defiantly (John) or silently (Matthew) or silently with a big speech (Mark) -- not to mention whether the Jews were simply a part of the story (most of the Gospels) or responsible for deicide (what John seems to suggest) -- is no small matter for a film claiming to be wholly authentic.
Millions of people have been killed in wars and autos da fe over the immutability of the gospels. I don't think these "differences in opinion" among their authors are any small matter.
August 5, 2003 03:38 PM
Jesus is the Eucharist !! He was born of the
Virgin Mary, not invented. Bringing up the Eucharist
as an invention is a hideous statement. This is one
area where Catholic believers shine. Jesus literally
proclaims that he is the Living Bread. Those who eat
of this Bread shall live forever. The Passion of Jesus
is difficult for nonbelievers. It takes two or more to
get into an argument. But simply recognized, it took
the cross (sign of contradiction) to lift Jesus up. Where
He can draw all men to Himself. It still holds true today.
That's how powerful the cross of Jesus is. That's how
powerful His Passion is. Bear in mind that when people swear, they overwhelmingly scream His name —Jesus Christ. It will continue to be so untill He
comes in Glory. Mel Gibson has the spiritual
awareness to risk all, and the artistic integrity,
credibility, character, favor, and authority to
"function with unction." Big time. Big story.
Big anointing. No one can stop it.
August 6, 2003 09:24 AM
Well of course the eucharist was invented. All things had to be invented -- the universe among them. Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb, but that doesn't mean lightbulbs don't exist, does it?
The better question is: If the eucharist is so important, why isn't it included in John?
Pace
August 6, 2003 10:56 AM
Jesus did not invent Himself in the Eucharist; miracles
are not invented, they are performed. We're dealing
with the supernatural, not the natural. If He can transform water into wine, He can certainly transform
bread and wine into His sacred Body and Blood.
You, sadly, have no awareness of this. Too bad.
You have never received the Body and Blood of Christ.
He must be received and consumed in order for the graces of this great gift to reach the soul as spiritual food. You are not doing this. You are not of the Faith. You would never speak of the Eucharist in this way
if you had received it. There is a whole way of the cross
that a person becomes a believer in Christ's sacrifice
on the cross. This is the crucifixion.
By all means look at John 6:32,33,35,41,48,50,51,58.
There it is.
Now about Mel's movie. I cannot wait to see it.
To experience what Jesus went through must be
as tough as looking at a serpent on a pole in order
to receive healing. So it is for nonbelievers. Imagine
looking up at the messiah and realizing the need
of forgiveness for your sins and this is the sacrifice
that has been ordained once and for all.
Scary stuff. No wonder Satan wants to attack it.
But he already lost. See the movie at the risk
of having your heart changed forever.
August 6, 2003 10:58 AM
MICHELLE IS CORRECT JESUS HIMSELF IS THE BREAD OF LIFE NAMELY THE EUCHARIST. ALL THE VERSES IN JOHN 6 REFER TO THE GIVING OF JESUS HIMSELF ON THE CROSS THE BREAD OF LIFE. JESUS SAID HE WOULD BE PRESENT IN THE EUCHARIST BECAUSE HE CHOOSES TO BE . THOMAS EDISON AND HIS LIGHT BULB WAS AN INVENTION FOR SURE . BUT GOD WHO IS THE CREATOR OF THE WORLD CAN ENTER INTO WHAT HE CREATED NAMELY BREAD AND TAKE UP RESIDENCE THERE REALLY AND TRULY. WE ACCEPT THIS BY FAITH OF COURSE. THE REAL PRESEDNCE OF JESUS IN THE EUCHARIST ALLOWS US ALSO GODS CRREATION TO BE FED SPIRITUALLY THROUGH WORD , THE SCRIPTURES , AND SACRAMENT THE EUCHARIST. GOD IS THE DIVINE INVENTOR OR CREATOR WHO HAS GIVEN US A MARVELOUS WAY TO INTERACT WITH HIM. AND TO SHARE IN THE BENFITS OF THE PASSION THE SALVATION OF THE WORLD. JEUSS REDEEMS US FROM ADAMS SIN BY HIS BLOOD SHED ON CALVAZRYS CROSS FOR US ATONNG FOR SIN IN A WAY THE JEWS WOULD UNDERSTAND THROUGH BLOODF SACRIFICE HE BECOMES THE LAMB OF GOD AS IT WERE WHO RESTORES ALIENATED HUMANITY WITH GOD. THIS IS THE TRUE SACRIFICE THAT IS REPRESENTED IN AN UNBLOODY MANNER UPON THE ALTARS OF CATHOLIC CHURCHES EVERY DAY WE ARE FORGIVEN OF SINS AND WE PERSONALLY MUST CLAIM THE REDEMPTION WON FOR US AND APPROPRIATE IT OUR LIVES WE MUST GIVE OF OUR OWN BODY AND BLOOD FOR OTHERS AS JESUS DID THIS IS TRUE LOVE AND THE LOVE THAT WILL TRANSFORM THIS WORLD TODAY. MELS MOVIE WILL ILLUSTRATE GODS GREAT LOVE FOR US AND WE MUST THEN IMITATE CHRIST BY LOVING ALL PEOPLE. AS JESUS FORGAVE THOSE WHO CRUCIFIED HIM SO MUST WE FORGIVE AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THIS WORLD BY LOVING OTHERS AS JESUS DID. THIS IS THE RADICAL WAY WE MUST LIVE TODAY AS A RESPONSE TO SELFISHNESS AND SELF CENTERENESS- PEACE.TO ALL WHO READ THIS FR. PAUL.
August 6, 2003 04:28 PM
I assure you I wasn't connoting the word "invention" in the way that you are -- I'd say the God of Genesis "invented" the world, for instance -- but I'll concede your point as you've structured it.
Michele: I'm afraid you're just moving the goalposts. As metaphor, your argument stands, but if you want to defend the gospels as literal history, you have to make sure events line up with one another. But I have to say, you're being very forgiving of the gospel's authors, which is an admirably Christian trait. I hope you can extend that understanding to others as well.
Fr. Paul: You final point of full forgivness is well taken. I hope those who watch Mel Gibson's version of the story keep that in mind.
We wouldn't want agry mobs knocking down the Coliseum, after all.
August 6, 2003 05:22 PM
The Bible does not teach the practice or the idea of the Eucharist. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is a SPIRITUAL MATTER, not a physical matter. To believe that you are actually eating the flesh of Christ is downright cannabalistic, and needless to say, ridiculous. Salvation comes this way: 1. Realizing that you are a sinner(Romans 3:23). 2. Realizing that there is a penalty for sin.(Romans 6:23). 3.Realizing that there is a pardon for sin. -Jesus Christ(Romans 5:8)4. Believing by faith that Christ died for your sins on the cross of Calvary, and accepting Him as your personal Savior. (Let's not forget to say that HE ROSE AGAIN, AND IS ALIVE TODAY AND FOREVER!)
August 6, 2003 07:28 PM
How unfortunate it is that christians don't agree
either. Chad has no understanding of the Eucharist.
You can bet he isn't a practicing Catholic. The Eucharist is a word used to represent Jesus' words
at the Last Supper. And His gift as risen Lord in the bread and in the wine, which was transformed into
His Body and His Blood. He is our spiritual food.
How can He do that ? Make Himself risen Lord
before He even died? That's easy for Him. He's God.
If he can transform water into wine at Cana, then
He can suspend His own creation to become
The Bread of Life. I am humbled at the sight of the Eucharist. To worship Him literally in the form of
consecrated bread. Only the Holy Spirit can transform the bread into the Body , litterally, of Christ.
To mention cannibalistic is to fly off the handle into
your own misunderstanding. "My flesh is real food.
My blood is real drink." He said it. I didn't.
We are instructed to eat and drink. We should obey
Him. Simple as that. But you have to come to faith.
I do not believe that the bread and grape juice
that is used for other denominations or nondenominationals is the Body and Blood of
Jesus. Because it is not. You would be right to say
that it is not.
I only receive the Eucharist at my church, which is
Catholic. There are a few others who are in union
with the Catholic church. They have the Body and
Blood of Christ as well.
The word of Jesus is sacred. I have faith in Him
and what He says, and the Catholic church teaches
this from scripture. It's no mistake and has endured
persecution for nearly 2000 years.
Salvation comes from Jesus alone. So slow down,
Chad, don't be so quick to attack Jesus.
Satan loves to attack the truth of Jesus in the Eucharist.
It's worth it for him to try to keep believers away from
receiving Him as the Bread of Life. Jesus is truly
present there. Satan will attack it any way he can. He'd
rather keep you down, lest you discover the truth of
Jesus' real presence.
Whatever communion you take, you are right to say
that IT IS NOT the Body and Blood of Jesus.
Because it isn't. What you have is the real absence.
You are merely eating bread and grape juice.
These actions are in His memory. Catholics not only
do it as a remembrance, but they plug into the Blood
sacrifice at every Mass. Go to Mass sometime
and just listen to what is being said. We proclaim the Body and the Blood. We come to kneel in
His Presence.
There will always be questions about Jesus and the
Bible and the community of believers.
Why? Because Jesus is the best thing to ever happen
in the universe-- planet earth in particular.
We need Jesus to forgive us our sins. We need Him
for salvation. I am glad that Chad realizes this.
I have no argument with him there. No matter
what your denomination or affiliation or nondenomination, Jesus is Lord. And that can only be said by the power of te Spirit.
Anyway, Mel Gibson's fabulous effort to film the last
12 hours of Jesus' life will serve whatever purpose
the Holy Spirit has for it. Mel was and continues
to be obedient to the call that Jesus has set upon
him. We are all bound to disagree over things.
Perhaps we can go to this film and let it unfold before
us and allow it to minister individually. And then go
home and pray.
I don't think there will be any rioting. A few
conversions maybe. But if anyone does riot, it
will be because they want it.
Thank you, Pace, for responding. and you,
too, Chad. I hope all goes well at the film.
Jesus, help us to better understand your Passion.
death and resurrection.
August 7, 2003 12:24 AM
This movie..this 'passion play' is good.
in a fallen world it reveals the crucified Christ who bears our sins and pain. There can be no wrong in this film.it presents our Savior. As Jesus said, a house divided cannot stand.
It is time for all believers in Christ to Stand..and forget the details..As Christians we are one house.
The Devil is in the Details. Let the details be damned!
Christ..boldly represents our Faith.
Look at Mel Gibsons film when it comes out...
stop the chatter.
August 7, 2003 01:59 PM
It is my hope that all of us, Catholics and non Catholics,will get a deeper insight into Jesus thru Gibsons unique presentation. All Christians and non Christians Iam sure will get something out of this film. PEACE. Fr. Paul.
August 11, 2003 02:14 PM
While I am not Christian and will not revert to the faith because of so many tenets which I find either hypocritical or nonsense, I am looking forward to this film. I applaud anyone who works on a project that is so close to his/her own heart-- particularly with the detail he is attempting to put into the movie-- and on a subject so raw and earth-shattering as this one, it simply begs to be seen. Regardless of one's personal faith, the story of Jesus is one that has shaped much of the world in the last 2,000 years. It is a story that should be reseen from time to time, to think about how so little in human relations has changed since Christ's time.
I do fear the backlash from charismatic Christians upon their non-Christian neighbors, however, based upon the responses I've seen on this board.
~ Mel.
August 11, 2003 08:56 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people become offended and upset over movies concerning Christ. If He wasn't what He claimed to be, then why would this one Man stir up so much controversy more than anyone else in history? Why would this one book, the Bible, be around longer than most any other book published (I said "most")?
If this movie is biblically factual per Mr. Gibson, then I am truly looking forward to seeing what Jesus went through. Seeing it and reading it are two very different things. It could be very humbling and may humble many people. Seeing it portrayed in the old movies was nice, but a movie really makes you think when you watch it played with emotion and passion. You know a movie is going to be good when people start to critique it even before it's been aired. Yes, as stated above, there were good Jews and bad Jews, just like there are both good and bad people everywhere, but when you put a name to the people who are posed as doing something controversial, this raises defenses.
I have an icon on my computer called "Devotion Time" that pops up every day with a different Bible verse. Ironically this verse is today's:
"For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved". Romans 10:12-13
August 11, 2003 11:16 PM
I think this will be the greatest movie of this century, it is unique and true from start to finish. What i really would like to say is that the Jews are hypocrites. If Mel Gibson started being a terrorist than he would cop the third degree, but in this situation he is only being completely faithfull to his religion and he is still coping the third degree. The Jews run the world and the film industry i wouldn't be surprised if they do all in their power to stop this movie from entering mainstream cinemas. God bless you Mel Gibson, and from the true children of God we are so proud of you on completing the greatest work of your life!
August 12, 2003 07:53 AM
The movie, Passion, will eventually come out because it is God's will that we should have everlasting life, if only we believe. I believe that God has given Mel Gibson a heart and mind to spread the Gospel. This will definitely agitate anything Christ-unlike.
The Jews have no right to accuse Gibson of being anti-semitic. Jesus was a Nazarite-Jew, who lived among Jews. How can you not tell the story without a background? The bottom line is that this is not about Jews, but it reflects a particular Jew named Jesus Christ, who was crucified by Pontius Pilate with the consent of a sect of Jews. So, tell the Jewish Defense League to go get a history book, and reread the story, so that they will not poorly reflect themselves or make ignorant comments.
Also, the Roman Catholic church is not concerned about Gibson's script being conformed to the Gospel. They are worried that this movie will dilute their doctrine concerning the trinity and the virgin mary. But, don't get it twisted, Jesus is God, and Mary isn't the mediator. Jesus/God is not three persons. For the Holy Spirit, Father and Son are all titles, but his name is Jesus. Just like a woman is a Mother, Daughter, and Wife, yet her name is (whatever). God was manifested in the flesh. (I Tim 3:16)
Anyway, I pray that this movie appears swiftly, in theaters. Also, I praying that Gibson stands strong in the faith and conviction of his calling.
May God bless you, Gibson!
August 12, 2003 07:59 AM
Who cares about what language it is in or whether Roman and Jews spoke this or that? Another historical point would be that (and take note) in those times people spoke more than 3 languages. Hello? But, just because Latin and Aramaic is used mostly doesn't mean that it is a Catholic movie. Admit it, God has directed and transformed Gibson into a Christian. This is what is humbling, and the movie will humble a lot individuals who are unaware of Christ and take him lightly.
August 12, 2003 02:49 PM
I am a believer in Christ. I do not have the extensive religious background that some appear to have. I believe that Christ lived. I believe that Christ died for MY sins. I believe that Christ rose from the dead on the third day and still reigns at the right hand of God. People ask me where is my proof. I do not need proof. They might, but my heart does not require proof. I owe more than I can ever hope to give to a Man who died a horrible death for me. I have watched the trailer for The Passion numerous times now and have been awestruck at what little I have seen thus far. It is ashame that the focus of the meaning of the movie is shifted to details which really do not matter. I know it is easy to think of Christ as dying on the cross and to never really get a feeling for what He had to go through to get there. If nothing else I believe this movie is already causing me to question my loyalty and how much I really am thankful for the sefless act given for me so long ago. My prayer is that the message being brought forward in this movie will not be lost in all the anti-this-and-that.
As the song says.. "He came, He lived, He died.... but that was the end of the beginning." I am prepared for Christs' return... are you?
August 12, 2003 09:43 PM
Simplicity and childlike faith is what Jesus calls us to! That sometimes is easier said than done. When someone like Pace offers mis-guided knowledge. Words that try to trick or deceive the reader we sometimes feel like we must come to correct what is presented in devious manners.
Remember--- God is not the author of confusion and deception, satan is and anyone who uses confusion and deception as a tool is infact using the tools of the one he serves. I had the opportunity to enjoy a full day of Adoration, Confession, Eucharistic Celebration and Catholic Praise and Worship in one of the most unexpected places of the world this past weekend, Salem Massachussets, the home of wican, witchcraft and satan. The battles are coming right to the core of where the problem lays. The battle is fierce right now but it is coming to an end. As Jesus promissed, the gates of hell will not pre-vail against His church. Believers in Christ Jesus hold firm and rejoice, Gods promisses are about to be fulfilled
August 12, 2003 10:05 PM
I just had to add this I found it on another website, Jonathan pretty well sums it up. Jonathan, I hope you don't mind my reprinting your thoughts.
JONATHAN WRITES...
I SAW THE PASSION
So I was at a private screening at Icon Productions yesterday, and got to see a rough cut of The Passion. There were about twelve people in the room, including Mel Gibson, his producing partner Steve and four or five other Icon staffers. After the screening, we talked to Mel and friends for about an hour. (As cool as that was, the quality of the film was such that the celebrity stuff was completely gone from the moment. I can't explain it really, except that it would be like standing in the Sistine Chapel next to, well, someone like Mel Gibson. Great art is a great leveler....) The rough cut we saw obviously didn't have the final score or special effects, and there were many more sub-titles than they will have in the finished film.
So, here's my take...
The Passion is a stunning work of art. It is a devout, act of worship from Mel and his collaborators - in the way that Handel's Messiah and Notre Dame were artistic acts of worship in previous times.
Let's get the controversy out of the way right at the top. The film is faithful to the Gospel, particularly St. John. It is no more anti-Semitic than is the Gospel. There are at least two members of the Sanhedrin who come forward to protest on Jesus' behalf during the sham trial. The Romans are just as guilty of cruelty and hatred against Jesus in the film. And best of all is a final look right into the camera of Mary, holding her dead Son. She is looking at all of us with a kind of , "Look what you've done"/This is for you" expression. A cinematic Pieta worthy of Michelangelo.
Having seen the film now, I can only marvel that the attacks are pretty much demonic. Hopefully, the devil will end up spitefully biting his own tail on this one-- as he does in The Passion by inciting on the executioners of Christ, and thus being complicit in his own ultimate defeat. The Passion is high art. It is the greatest movie about Jesus ever made. In the discussion following the film, Mel and co. were asking us how mainstream theater audiences would react to the film. I told them, "Who cares? What you have here is so much more than just a product to sell. It will live forever, regardless of whether it is a commercial success for you or not."
For those of us who love Jesus, The Passion is devastating to watch. It is so good, I almost couldn't stand it. There is one moment on the way of the cross sequence, in which the whole tragedy unfolding devolves into a vicious riot of hatred between Romans and Jews with the Savior on the ground in the middle of it getting it from both sides. It was so frenzied and terrible, I wanted to run from the room. But then, the film again finds Mary, Jesus's Mother on the sidelines, and her presence gets us through it. Kind of like how Mary's presence helped Jesus get through it, it seemed to me.
The film is lovingly Marian. Mary is perfectly portrayed here. She is contrasted repeatedly with the really super creepy Satan character, who is also a woman (something for the feminist theologians here? heh heh...).
The film is strongly Eucharistic. There is a beautiful juxtaposition of images that cuts from the stripping on Calvary to the unwrapping of the bread to be used at the last Supper. Fabulous stuff.
Every Christian needs to see this film at least once. Just to remember, in our current comfort zones while evil is closing in, the price that was paid for us. On my way home from the screening, I found myself praying in the car, "Jesus, I'm so sorry, I forgot..." How many films have led you to compunction lately? The Passion is a miracle.
Posted by Jonathan on July 03, 2003 at 06:15:41 PM
August 13, 2003 05:07 PM
Hello everyone,
Pace, I would rather assert that an attempt to incorporate material from all the gospels would create a greater and more accurate representation of the actual events than one that only draws its source material from a single gospel narrative.
It also adds dimension, depth, and continuity (to name a few things) that a single source narrative might lack. Any "holes" in the narrative (as directors would call them) would be filled with additional gospel material, rather than being sullied with auteur additions. THAT, Pace, would be the sham. In an effort to accurately portray events (which is not necessarily the goal of every film maker or film), multiple perspectives (the FOUR gospels) make it possible.
Thank you everyone, and farewell.
Sincerely,
Philip
August 13, 2003 05:37 PM
Here, you might enjoy this discussion. Your opinions would be welcome:
http://www.plastic.com/article.html;sid=03/08/08/11022551
Pace
August 13, 2003 05:50 PM
JESUS IS THE MEDIATOR ACCORDING TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH . THE TRINITY IS A DOCTRINE THAT EXPRESSES THE UNDERSTANDING OF WHO GOD IS AND HOW GOD HAS BEEN REVEALED IN THE BIBLE, AS FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. WE ARE NOT CONCERNED THAT THIS MOVIE WILL DILUTE OUR DOCTRINES AND BELIEFS THEY HAVE STOOD FIRM FOR 2000 YEARS SINCE OUR FOUNDER JESUS ESTABLISHED HIS CHURCH ON THE ROCK OF PETERS FAITH. MARY IS THE MEDIATRIX BECAUSE SHE IS THE PRIME INTERCESSOR WHO STANDS WITH US PRAYING WITH US AS WE BRING OUR NEEDS DIRECTLY TO JESUS. JESUS SAVED US ONCE AND FOR ALL ON CALVARY. MARY IS HONORED BECAUSE SHE IS THE MOTHER OF JESUS WHO IS GOD AND JESUS HIMSELF HONORED HIS MOTHER ON THE CROSS WHEN HE SAID TO JOHN- BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER
GIBSONS MOVIE WILL ONLY STREGNTHEN AUTHENTIC CATHOLIC TEACHINGS. THIS IS MY FEELING - FR. PAUL.
August 13, 2003 10:37 PM
Hello,
Pace, I am afraid that discussion is closed off to new comments.
Philip
August 13, 2003 11:07 PM
Huh ... Plastic didn't use to close discussions like that.
Sorry about that.
Pace
August 14, 2003 06:31 AM
Truly this movie is inspired by the Father and comes at a time when the seasons are changing
so drastically. This movie will surely be criticized, scrutinized and condemned by many in places of authority. Mel has just begun to taste the fire of those who want to bury Jesus and Christianity. I have noticed a few posting refering to the Jews being upset with this movie, they are blaming the Jews for killing Jesus. Hold your Christain tongues! It was my sin that killed Jesus, I am a Roman Catholic Christain and it was nothing short of my sin. I am thankful for the salvation that Jesus brought me through His Passion. There is nothing anti-semetic about the movie, the movie brings out that point perfectly. When you see the movie, look into the faces of Jesus's persecuters, I will see my face there, I hope you see yours.
Mel needs our constant prayer and support. Those in power know that this movie will melt
the hearts of many to true conversion. That's not what a "Politically Correct" world want's today. Stand firm in your faith, stand firm with Jesus Christ times will continue to get tough, persecution will surround you and all that is Good in God but know that God will take care of each of us who trust in Him.
God will take care of Mel Gibson....
I am redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb
(The TRUE EUCHARIST - JESUS my LORD).
Francis Xavier
August 14, 2003 06:31 AM
Truly this movie is inspired by the Father and comes at a time when the seasons are changing
so drastically. This movie will surely be criticized, scrutinized and condemned by many in places of authority. Mel has just begun to taste the fire of those who want to bury Jesus and Christianity. I have noticed a few posting refering to the Jews being upset with this movie, they are blaming the Jews for killing Jesus. Hold your Christain tongues! It was my sin that killed Jesus, I am a Roman Catholic Christain and it was nothing short of my sin. I am thankful for the salvation that Jesus brought me through His Passion. There is nothing anti-semetic about the movie, the movie brings out that point perfectly. When you see the movie, look into the faces of Jesus's persecuters, I will see my face there, I hope you see yours.
Mel needs our constant prayer and support. Those in power know that this movie will melt
the hearts of many to true conversion. That's not what a "Politically Correct" world want's today. Stand firm in your faith, stand firm with Jesus Christ times will continue to get tough, persecution will surround you and all that is Good in God but know that God will take care of each of us who trust in Him.
God will take care of Mel Gibson....
I am redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb
(The TRUE EUCHARIST - JESUS my LORD).
Francis Xavier
August 14, 2003 09:34 AM
I'm going to step this discussion out into a more broad area for the moment. Satan and his minions are very busy at the moment. They are very hard at work trying to discredit truth and our very values through technical legal means. satan ain't dumb. I live in Alabama, where in Montgomery they are trying to take a 10 Commandments memorial out our Alabama Supreme Court Building. It is interesting to me that the very system that has people swear to tell the truth on a Bible... "so help them God" wants to remove the very Commandments of that God from it's grounds. This is breaking my heart. Chief Justice Moore si the man who is fighting so hard to keep it there. It is a battle that can not be won by sideline Christians. We need to start stepping up and out and quit being closet Christians while the secular world continues to take over and bury the name of God.
Please visit this site to learn more about what is going on with the 10 Commandments... http://www.morallaw.org/
Chuck
August 14, 2003 06:45 PM
Chuck,
I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately we will continue to see this more and more. The name of God is being taken out of more things. How much longer before they toss the Bible out of the courts and now want you to swear on someones life or grave!
You mentioned "closet christians". I was one at one time. One who would talk about God when someone else brought up the subject, but stepped away when the time came to really speak up for fear of what people thought..."Jesus freak" or "religious fanatic" and "Bible toter".
My most shaming moment was several years ago when my daughter was about 4 and we had car problems...I always sent up a prayer for the darn thing to start. When my daughter and I would get in the car I'd say "lets say a prayer that it starts" and we would. Well, we had walked by a woman in her car and her car wasn't starting so my bright little daughter said "just say a prayer and God will help it to start!". The lady kind of looked at her funny and do you know I softly shushed my little girl for speaking out on something wonderful I had taught her and giving that woman some very good advice! I have changed much since that day, but I carry the shame with me daily to remind me of the Christian I need to be.
We cannot, as you put it, be sideline Christians. Are we only claiming Jesus when it suits us and keeping quiet the rest of the time or are we claiming him inside and out. Deny him now and we will be denied in the end.
You brought up some good points :)
Michelle
August 16, 2003 05:43 AM
This movie as nothing to do with anti semitic concerns. People who will watch this movie will react radically against the Jewish People because in their heart and root of faith they hated the Jews already, it has nothing to do withn this movie, it is a prophecy in action.
That people of many races will hate the chosen people of God, including high profile religious group and leaders. The Catholic Church will absolutely try all the avenue to prevent this movie to be shown to the public, because they complain about the brutal and violent portayalof the passion of Christ. Christianity is not about general patronage but about truth and nothing but the truth. If this is what was written in the bible so be it. Jesus does not want to be portrayed as a cutie- cutie man on the cross. He wants us to see the how mush He loves us by the real pain and sacrifice He suffered in the hands of the Romans and The Jews who actually represent the whole human race. This is a wonderful opportunity for the Jews to re-examine everything, and ask themselves this question; " Is it possible that the messiah that we were waiting to come could be the man that was crucified and killed in Israel?". If we stop the truth to be exposed, it is the repeat of history when all Jewish Religious Leaders and Corrupt and abusive Government leaders did to Jesus 2000 ago. Thank you
August 16, 2003 11:26 PM
after watching the movie trailer..i have decided to CONVERT to Catholicism. Only a Catholic could create such a beautiful work of art like Mel has done with "The Passion" and as others such as Michelangelo and leonardo...Non Catholic Christians simply lack artistic religious imagination...
August 17, 2003 01:52 PM
The gospels themselves are anti-Jewish propaganda so it doesn't surprise me that the movie would do the same. At the time when the gospels were written (long after the fact), Christians were disgrutled because the Jewish people weren't buying the Jesus is God party line. Therefore they wrote the gospels to place a negative slant on those who wouldn't convert.
August 17, 2003 09:29 PM
Lavey, talk about anti-semetic, that's about as anti-semetic a statement that I have ever heard. Again, the movie will bring out that it was mans sin that crucified Jesus. Mans sin and for that I am sorry but grateful that Jesus loved me so much to lay down His life and suffer a most terrible painful death. Just fo me... and you too! And Fergal, obviously you are not a Roman Catholic, I detect alittle anti-Catholism in your thoughts. Fergel, Jesus died this horrifying death so that we could love one another, as a Catholic I want you to know I love you. May Christ peace be with us all especially in this time of satans last stand.
August 19, 2003 04:25 PM
Hello to all,
I find Chuck's concerns very well taken. Some
christians are still in the boat, unable to put foot to
water. Where's the faith? Where's the fire?
A lot have grown cold. Or lukewarm: " I"ll do something
tomorrow." Years go by. Still no real awareness
that christian values are being eroded in our society.
I recently heard that in Canada, it is being charged
that the Holy Bible is hate liturature. And there will
soon be a vote by their legislature or judiciary to
decide. If it turns out that they vote against the Bible,
it will be condemned and Canada won't allow the
printing of Bibles. If anyone has specific information—
how about sharing.
Rosie, you just put yourself right out there...and boldly!
Good for you, sister. Take it slow and find proper
instruction. They'll be starting up very soon with
RCIA programs - to become a catechumen, call
one of the churches.
La Vey...Was it more like Jews wanted to see more
of the multiplication of bread and fishes? They ate
of their fill in a deserted place. They were not interested
in an illumination of life. Because, all the while, on
numerous occasions, they came to see Jesus perform
miracles and to hear him teach. But when Jesus talked
tough (he was no wimp) they just couldn't take it.
There comes a time when babies have to grow teeth.
But only then can you graduate to eating steak.
No teeth, no steak. Jesus cried over them, because
they were like sheep without a shepherd.
But also they didn't recognize the time of their visitation.
This is in scripture. And, notably, it was Saul of Tarsus
who held cloaks for others while they stoned
Stephen. Salvation was open to the Gentiles.
And more Gentiles came to believe. The Holy Spirit is
the agent behind a person's conversion. One is free
to resist. But it doesn't make Jesus any less the
Messiah. He fulfilled every prophecy written about
Him. And so it is.
What evidence do you have to form a shabby
inference (kid stuff, really) that leads to such an
unimaginative claim?
What warrants are you able to provide to support your inference?
Mel Gibson's film is going to be a pathway in the dark
for the wandering soul. From what has been witnessed
so far, it's the precious grace of God for a world
so lost and, yes, lonely. Korny sounding or not, Jesus
is the only way out for anyone's sins. The world doesn't
talk about sin. It is very embarrassing for secular
society to admit it. Jesus' blood sacrifice on the cross
is for all time.
With all the horror movies that have been produced by Hollywood, and the XXX type films, it is completely
insane to think that showing the brutal but true death
of Jesus would threaten anyone. Like it or not it is no
small thing to come to Jesus as he was on the cross.
Would anyone come to repent if he were riding a
chariot with sword in hand. Sorry, not that kind of
Savior.
The Devil is a deceiver and lying slimeball. He would
love souls to miss this film. Come to experience
something of great worth.
Signing off for now. In the peace of Jesus and Mary,
His Mother and ours.
Michele P.
August 20, 2003 11:46 AM
The outpouring of criticism and controversy surrounding the release of "The Passion" only further illustrates and reveals the signs that we are approaching the time when Jesus will return. Just open your eyes and look for yourselves: a falling away of the church and its people, homosexuality has invaded all aspects of life and is openly tolerated, wars, rumors of wars, disease, fear, etc... And now a movie about the death of Jesus Christ (our savior, life-giving spirit, our passover, our way, etc...) is stirring up so much resentment and apathy that it makes you ponder the question -Is Jesus' return at hand? You would think that God's people would openly accept and be thankful to see a movie that depicts the death of our Lord and Savior not only because we know he bore our sins on the cross, but because he is our living savior who is resurrected from the dead. Yes, the movie will make me cry to see that my sins (and all of mankinds) put my savior on the cross, but I am eternally greatful for his sacrifice and I know I will be in heaven with him. It is common knowledge and scriptually unequivocally that Jews (and the Romans) were the main driving force in crucifying Jesus Christ, but that is certainly not the true message of the cross. The critics and the opposition are missing the message, but again they are blinded. The underlying principle is the fact that Jesus died for all our sins and it doesn't truly matter who crucified him as long as you come to believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as your personal savior. Therefore, I give thanks to Mel Gibson for his noble attempt to recreate the crucifixion of Christ and believe it is a blessing from God and pray that it will only further glorify him. God Bless You!!
August 23, 2003 12:43 PM
I doubt very much that authenticity or accuracy will have anything to do with Gibson's film. It will probably be just another depiction of the traditional story, if a little more graphic than others.
Does anyone care what the Gospels actually say about anything? Or are we just obsessed with repeating and repeating as if repetition could make anything true?
I will give one example here: The Greek Gospels do not say that Judas betrayed Jesus. "Betray" is mistranslation of a neutral word which has no connotation of betrayal. This is well-established now and accepted by most scholars, even if they are slow to see the implications of it. We owe this insight to William Klassen's book "Judas: Betrayer or Friend of Jesus?" (1996). He is the only one who has had the courage to fight for a correction to the traditional story and to save an innocent Judas from being further maligned. Even Raymond Brown, a conservative, Catholic scholar, insists (his word) that the Greek cannot be translated as betray.
There is much more to correct. The Gospels also contain a wealth of information that Jewish leaders did not persecute Jesus. But who cares about what the Gospels say when we have tradition to endlessly repeat? I discuss all this and more on my Web site and blogspot:
http://www.historicaljesusghost.com
http://historicaljesusghost.blogspot.com
August 23, 2003 12:54 PM
Again, just another reason why I thank God everyday that I am not educated as you are Leon. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, unfortunatly that's what ongoing and ongoing and ongoing education does to the human mind. I would rather live in childlike faith, oh what a joy it is to believe and not see! For lessons in childlike faith come to my website...
www.xavierpublishing.com
I don't have to say long live Jesus, He does, always was, is now and always will. I and many others will live with Jesus as this life comes to an end for us. As we all know it will... and that's not the end to the story!
August 23, 2003 08:53 PM
I must post this, after hearing about the Anti Deflamation Leagues objection to this movie the Passion I feel we must answer and defend our rights as Bible believing Christains, for the sake of our faith and beliefs and Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. I even believe the MAYOR (a Jewish man) would concur on my thoughts. This is a letter I wrote in response to the ADL's objection. I would encourage you to do the same. Write with compasion and love, understanding and not anger. Anger heals nothing. Respond and be Christ like! God Bless
Francis Xavier
RE: The article I read on your www.adl.org web site.
ADL Concerned Mel Gibson's 'Passion' Could Fuel Anti-Semitism if Released in Present Form
New York, NY, August 11, 2003 … After having attended a private screening of Mel Gibson's new film, "The Passion," the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today voiced concerns that the film, if released in its present form, "could fuel hatred, bigotry and anti-Semitism" by reinforcing the notion of collective Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus. An ADL representative was present at a private screening of "The Passion" at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, Texas.
"The film unambiguously portrays Jewish authorities and the Jewish mob as the ones responsible for the decision to crucify Jesus," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "We are deeply concerned that the film, if released in its present form, could fuel the hatred, bigotry and anti-Semitism that many responsible churches have worked hard to repudiate."
I quote your Foxman about when he said the following to Mel Gibson : "Once Gibson began screening the movie for selected religious leaders and political pundits, the ADL's Foxman publicly challenged him to show it to the ADL, saying, "If you say this is not anti-Semitic and this is a work of love and reconciliation, why are you afraid to show it to us?"
Gibson was not affraid to to show it to the ADL, he just knew that they would condemn the movie, a movie that infact is historically correct. However, what the ADL doesn't understand is what we Christains understand, That we Christains crusified Christ, the son of God because of our sinfulness. It was my sins and the sins of the world that crusified Christ. Jesus was a Jew, the Jews are his chosen people, I understand that so what is it that you don't understand about that?
There have been many movies made on the autrosities of Adolph Hitler and his NAZI Party, documentaries showing his gas chambers, his killing fields, his torture chambers, all very GRAPHIC and STIRRING. What Christains did you hear object to those films. Since Adolph Hitler was a Catholic we could have objected to those movies and documantaries charging that they would create anger and anamosity against all Catholics and Christians. That would be absurd of us. I am glad the world was able to witness the brutality of Hitler, I am a Catholic and those disclosures didn't hurt me or my church or Christinity for that fact. It made us better, more compassionate and willing to help. That's one of the main reasons Christains stand with Isreal today, Gods chosen nation.
I believe those films informed the world well, insuring that perhaps this would never happen again. Well two things, none of those films were totally accurate, most would believe that it was only the Jewish that were tortured and murdered, most don't know of the Christains that were tortured and murdered in the same concentration camps. I didn't hear the ADL object to that inacurracy! Secondly I accept the Jewish people and the Jewish faith as they are, I love them as Jesus loved them. I would never ask you to change your history to form a politically correct and acceptable movie, please don't ask Mel Gibson or the Christains of the
world to change their history, faith or belief to suit your desires.
Your enemies are not the true faith filled Christains, the lovers and followers of Jesus Christ.
Your enemies are those like Hitler would like to create a perfect society , they who would kill
and destroy to eliminate all Jews, Catholics and People of Color of the world.
They are the white supremist, the skin heads, the KKK, oh they say they are Christains, they are
liars just like the lies of hate, distortion and fear they are spreading. God help them, God help us....
God let the Jews be Jews and God let the Christains be Christains.
Shalom
Francis Xavier
August 24, 2003 09:50 PM
There have been many posts here from religious Christians; I'm an Orthodox Jew. Let me tell you what I think of this issue.
When I think of Christianity, I think of a religion that has a long history of persecuting and killing my ancestors. That this history is a matter of historical fact is confirmed by historians and theologians of all religions, up to and including the Pope, who has acknowledged and apologized for the crimes committed by his Church. Now I know that there's more to Christianity than killing and persecuting Jews; but that is the primary way that Christianity has affected me.
I should stress, however, that none of this long and gruesome history leads me to feel any hostility or ill-will towards present-day Christians, who are no more responsible for the crimes of their ancestors than I would be if my ancestors had killed Jesus.
Objectively, whether my ancestors or any other Jews of that era were responsible for Jesus' death cannot be known. It is fairly clear that the actual killing was done by Romans, and most theologians including the Pope, whose word I would think sufficient for Catholics if not other Christians, say that Jews were not responsible; but the Gospels, according to some interpretations, blame the Jews.
To Christians, of course, the Gospels are truth and their veracity is a matter of faith. By definition, as a Jew, I don't believe in the Gospels. I have no particular reason to attach any more credibility to their apparently contradictory recounting of events surrounding Jesus' death than I do to their recounting of Jesus' life.
Given the centrality that Jesus' death has to Christians, I can understand that a movie portraying this event would arouse deep feelings of spirituality among Christians. And I think that's a good thing: not all Jews are liberal, and not all think that the secularization of society is such a wonderful thing.
However, I'm also aware that historically, the 'passion' story has been used to inspire many acts of anti-Semitism--by which I do not mean that people were insulted or offended, but that they were raped, murdered, tortured and burnt alive.
Now, it's true that in the English-speaking world, anti-Semitism--not to mention acts of violence against Jews--is beyond the pale of social acceptibility. Even here, however, it is not entirely absent: just look at a few of the comments on this site.
On the other hand, there are, unfortunately, places in the world where this is not the case--where to walk down a street wearing a yarmulka is to risk physical assault. So fears about inciting anti-Semitism aren't just oversensitive people worrying about being offended, but concrete problems that risk people's physical safety. And the movie will play there too.
That notwithstanding, were the movie a simple recitation of historical fact, I would have no objection to it. The truth should not be distorted in order to avoid offending people.
However, the question of Jewish responsibility for Jesus' death is not established as historical fact but as religious belief. And much of the detail that goes into a movie--detail which can make all the difference in the malevolence or benevolence of characters and peoples--cannnot of course be derived from historical sources, but are solely the result of artistic visions.
The movie is still being edited, so nobody really knows what it says. But according to sources who read a script and others connected to the movie, it is pretty negative about Jews. Also, some reports (see The New Republic, Aug. 11) say it is derived from the vision of a German nun--hardly historical material.
Can I, based on what I know now, condemn Gibson? No. But it is not unreasonable for Jews to be concerned. And if free speech dictates that Gibson has the right to make his movie as he sees fits, then the same principle dictates that Jews have the right to voice their concerns.
_______________________________________
Peace is the art of turning heat into light.
August 25, 2003 10:58 AM
I am very impressed with what Mel Gibson is doing. I t is very rare to see someone in Hollywood stand up for waht they believe in. Jesus Christ came to be the savior of the world. This movie will hopefully depict that in a way that people who see it will have no doubt that it is true. We have to remember that God works in mysterious ways. He could possibly use this film to change many people's lives! I know that Mel Gibson will be extremely blessed for this work.
August 25, 2003 12:04 PM
I learned long ago that you cannot dictate to
an artist. You can't get into his or her head,
much as you'd like to. The artist creates from
within himself and his vision. Mel Gibson has
created something, and it falls within a
category of sacred art and moving pictures.
His instrument is film and all the modern-day
developments that go with that. His art is his
direction. He himself has said that he was
inspired by the Holy Spirit. All he did was
direct traffic. A noble admission.
No one told Picasso what color paint to use
or even where to place a nose on his objects'
faces. Or anything. He wouldn't have paid any
attention. And any critic or art lover would have
trouble knowing his inner vision. Some things
have a right to remain mysterious.
I remember "Piss Christ" being supported
and defended for being art. Catholics were
resented and scoffed at—their concerns brushed off when they spoke up about it.
Even Sister Wendy threw her 2 cents worth
in on Bill Moyer. Go back to that program if
you even care about what she said.
Art is serious territory. Mel Gibson knows that.
It stirs the soul. It can speak of deep things.
How good "The Passion" is has yet to be revealed. If you don't want to go, by all means,
stay away. There are others who will find it to
be a refreshment, a spring from which to
drink and satisfy their thirst for God.
Seeing "Piss Christ" should bring Christians
to their knees. "The Passion" should also
bring Christians to their knees. We need to
rediscover our first love.
Where is the "New Springtime" in the Church
declared by Pope John Paul for the new
millenium? All these things come to mind.
I anxiously await "The Passion."
My best to all who read this.
Michele P.
August 25, 2003 03:58 PM
God is so good....
Thank you Isabelle and Michele, your observations are a breath of fresh air, perhaps winds of knowledge from the Holy Spirit.
I am blest......
August 26, 2003 01:33 PM
You're welcome, Francis. Glad you noticed.
It's time to think outside conventions that are
not ours. It's a question of coming back to
Jesus. The world has gone mad, and we need to repent. I'd prefer to take it personally.
Repentence is a gift that enlightens each
person as to what they are doing that offends
God. We all need to have contrition for our
sins.
I have my thoughts about how this film of
Mel Gibson will guide us to that particular focus. Everybody has sinned. Just everybody.
We need to return to a loving God who is willing to forgive us. Most of all, I hope
Catholics see this film and really let it touch them in their hearts. To repent . To return to
Jesus. To receive his grace with the
willingness to change and be led by The Holy Ghost.
The world has gone mad—yet God extends
the invitation to be healed and saved from
self-distruction. Jesus is The Way.
No preaching is too strong if it leads a person to seek out Jesus. He gave it all on Calvary.
It's His suffering, His Passion, His Crucifixion
that saves the world. Not ours.
The Devil would love to get believers away
from that focus.
Francis, Isabelle.....jump in.
Fix your eyes on Jesus.
Michele P.
August 27, 2003 08:35 PM
I just returned from a two day trip and I found your posting Michele and I must agree the world has gone mad. Mad like mad dogs and that brought to mind a few scriptures and a Prophesy I was given while writing a Catholic Tract on Idolatry. Looking in the Bible dogs don't play a very good role. In Philippians 3
1. Finally, brothers, I wish you joy in the Lord.
The true way of Christian salvation
To write to you what I have already written before is no trouble to me and to you will be a protection.
2. Beware of dogs! Beware of evil workmen! Beware of self-mutilators!
Then look to Revelation 22:12-15
12. Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay everyone as their deeds deserve.
13. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14. Blessed are those who will have washed their robes clean, so that they will have the right to feed on the tree of life and can come through the gates into the city.
15. Others must stay outside: dogs, fortune-tellers, and the sexually immoral, murderers, idolaters, and everyone of false speech and false life."
The Prophesy I was given was clearly from God, as He gave it to me he was firm that I should make sure the reader understood it was His (Gods) words, not mine.
God is speaking
God has touched my heart; He has asked me to be bold and to make a statement on this very important issue. God warned me that I would make some enemies, I would anger some people, I would upset some in the leadership of the church but he also warned me that He, Yahweh is angered, He the God of Israel is Jealous that He, the God of Abraham has come to separate the wheat from the chaff. He has told me to tell you that the day of the Lord has arrived and because of His great love for you His patience has kept Him seated. God has told me to tell you that He is standing at the throne right now, that the day of judgment is at hand, He has told me to tell you to repent, to come to Him and Him alone, it is Yahweh your God who speaks. Listen and heed this warning of Love, you are my children; I want to bring you home, heed and obey what I have commanded you.
August 28, 2003 06:06 PM
The Jewish critics of this movie are guilty of ignorance and arrogance. Since they doubt whether Christ ever existed, their opinions are essentially irrelevant. However they have succeeded in giving this movie tremendous pubicity. Far more will see it now, whether it is in latin, hebrew, greek, or english subtitles, than ever would have bothered to darken the doorsteps of the theatres without this public thrashing about...
I for one intend to see it opening night, and many of my friends will as well..
September 2, 2003 12:22 AM
We are all so proud of our AMERICAN FREEDOM,
but I do not see that Mel Gibson is free to
make the movie "The Passion" as he wants to make
it,even though, he paid $25 million of his own
money to make the film.
There are MANY freedom lovers that are taking
away Mel's freedom......
Rosa Mary
September 2, 2003 04:51 PM
How wonderful the breadth of expression
when it comes to opinion.
By the way, the four Gospels complement
each other. The fullness of the truth is told. Each writer in his own style, inspired by
the Holy Ghost. This falls in accord with
heavenly tradition. So that no man may
boast. Each Gospel is a major chord of
expression and depth, as well as insight.
Also, Zeb's opinion seems to be right on.
The best to all who read this.
Michele Peruzzi
September 5, 2003 09:05 AM
I have just completed reading all the postings on this site, both pro and con. I am anxiously awaiting the release of this movie, and hope it will be released on DVD so it can be viewed and reacted to more than once. In Jesus' spirit, let us pray 'Father forgive them'.
September 6, 2003 09:10 PM
It's good to know a lot of believers of Jesus Christ is outhere. Whether or not the movie 'Passion' is accurate - only Christ knows, for He's been there.
And I believe He's more than capable to defend himself if He wants too, in His own way I guess. Btw, He's the only figure that has been in many movies regardless....
Why? Because of His 'Passion'...
... which is His sufferring of persecution, harshness, and sacfrice for us all, despite them being so painful to the point of death for both Jews and Gentiles.... It's an example of Love & mercy for us all - no matter the consequence.
Jesus is a Jew who loves His chosen people the Jews, as well as the Gentiles. He reconciles Jews and non-Jews, us Gentiles - thru this Passion.
Judas was a Jew but supposedly a 'Christian' - he's the one who sold Jesus! Oh, what about those 'Christians' of Peter and the others who left Him alone.... man, we can be such a coward as human beings. But that's okay... He knows.
Then there's the Jewish priests and people at that time who disbelieved Him and felt threathened by Him then chose Barabas instead. He cried for them, I'm sure He still does...... He never fights them.
Then there's Romans the oppressors... whose symbol of persecution, punishement, humiliation which was 'the Cross' w/ Jesus' death, was turned to be a symbol of Hope & Love.
... so it's true what the Scripture says, there's no more Jews nor Gentiles - everyone has turned against God. We all killed Him. Still do w/ our harsh transgressions to Him & one another...
Therefore, there will be no more Jews nor Gentiles but all have also been reconciled together by Him and in Him.... with His 'Passion' - His blood w/ Love.
Should you not believe Him - it's okay. He knows.... still let that Love remain in your heart no matter what... for that is Him in you.
God is w/ us always
September 6, 2003 11:07 PM
support the passion, visit this exclusive site , sign the peition, join, the site has EVERYTHING u can search for
WWW.THEPASSIONMOVIE.TK
September 7, 2003 11:16 AM
The differences in details in the four gospels do not mean confusion or misrepresentation of the truth. Scholars know well that the gospels were written through the eyes of faith of the apostles who were more motivated by transmitting a spiritual message (mainly addressing the concerns, aspirations and hopes of their communities by reminding them of Jesus's teachings, divine status and mission)rather than by reporting detailed historical events. The Gibson movie seems to be a beautiful work of art. Evaluating it as historical or non historical is irrelevant and misleading. "The Passion" seems to have been consistent with gospel's revelations and that should be good enough (considering it is a work of art inspired by the gospels and NEVER forgetting the freedom of expression rights which are sacred in this land).
An individual who was part of the group (ADL + SCHOLARS)who, after reading a pre-script,was kind enough to email me all the relevent documents involved in their decision as well as the "general recommendations" they suggested after criticizing the script. I can tell you honestly that, by reading those recommendations, it becomes obvious that those people were guided by hypersensitivity to anti-Semitism and not by faithfulness to scriptural accuracy.
I have replied to those recommendations commenting on each and I would be glad to send anyone who is interested the text.
I respect Gibson's faith, courage and artistic skills and I know the movie will be a great success.
Anthony
September 13, 2003 04:26 PM
I visited this web page because I have to do an essay for school regarding the controversies that arised from Passion. Since I am a Christian, this is a very touchy subject for me. I am glad to see that more people share the same thoughts as I do about how the controversies are stupid - history is history. Besides, I haven't heard anybody complaining when Herculies came out. I saw the trailer at the Harvest Crusade and it was absolutely amazing. I don't understand why so many people have to complain about such a wonderful work of art - whether they believe in it or not.
September 15, 2003 10:55 AM
i know that you sometimes get a look on these sites to taste the people opinions.
and i cant tell you, i didnt like at all the words about killed dogs and impaled guys on a stick...I know that you 're out of mind with all the pressure, i was thinking yesterday you were joking but, seriously does seems to you nice telling these things just becouse your dad?
i told you before let it go...dont reply with violence 'cause is that they want; and they want you on the cross...(not a joke)oh yes
if you want to explain your reasons, just tell them the true, no ****s, please! yesterday when i watched heat i tought you were joking...but this is not a prank, that's reality! and please! don't lose your head, there's a lot of people that believe in you, so, keep goin' i'm with you, no matter what happens in our lives, you know, i'm still with you, ok? with love , Ally
September 16, 2003 01:53 PM
Hi,
Great website!! I wanted to ask if you knew how to contact Mel? I read an article about his upcoming movie, "The Passion", about Christ, and it stated that he wanted to use the original languages, and it only listed Aramaic and Latin. The language that was dominant during that time was "koine" (which means "common") Greek. This dialect was spoken throughout the Roman Empire during Christ life, and was different from the classical Greek. It was the language spoken by the common people, and was also the original language of the New Testament, with only very small parts written in Aramaic, and no parts were written in Latin.
I would like to pass this on to him, but do not know how to contact him. Could you help?
Sincerely,
Keith
September 16, 2003 04:51 PM
Hello Keith,
Call ICON PRODUCTIONS in New York City
for starters. It is his company. Maybe ask for Jonathan who seems to work there and saw
the movie. They should be able to direct you.
Call 411 for info, OK?
Hope this helps.
M Peruzzi
September 16, 2003 05:08 PM
Keith,
I'm so sorry. I tried the numbers that 411
supplied in NY. They don't work.
Try ICON in LA. Maybe that would be fruitful.
Or Director's Guild of America. They could
guide you. It might be tough though.
There's a number in NY. Try 411 again.
Mel did his research, however. And checked
on facts at the Vatican I understand.
He wouldn't go forward without great respect
for his topic. And he wouldn't use something
that would undermine his determination to
get the film to live and breathe.
Hope you find him. If you do, please let
me know.
Peace,
M. Peruzzi
September 18, 2003 05:59 PM
"You wouldn't bother to notice if the Holy Virgin Mary, mother of God, was standing next to you or not? Come to think of it, you wouldn't bother to notice if the mother of the guy who was being killed was standing next to you or not? You wouldn't notice what charges were written above Jesus' head?"
Considering the solumness of the situation would you notice everything?
Every critic of the gospels seem to follow the same tactics. The silence of Paul (Earl Doherty), The exclusion of the virgin birth in one gospel and appearance of it in another. The common denominator is their closed minded approach driven by their own bais.
They critique the bible as if the gospel writers were engaged in satire.
The tuth is, the gospels were not writen for the purpose of engaging in satire or Apologetics. They were testiments writen as each writer witnessed. You might have something if one gospel says Jesus escaped crucifixion and the other said he didn't. Heck, I'd be more sceptical if they were identical in everyway.
September 26, 2003 09:18 AM
I believe that there are over comers in the Churches, but in the cathlic church I haven't seen very many. If Mel is a true beliver in Christ and relies solely on the truth of scripture he will come to find there are no redemtive properties in Mary "Jesus'" mother, she is NOT the MOTHER of GOD! she is not to be worshiped or prayed to. and I hope that the film demmonstrates the resurrection other wise your missing the whole point, that we serve a risen savior not a dead one, HE IS NO LONGER ON THE CROSS please tell me you make that clear, thank you Dave.
September 28, 2003 10:36 PM
Mel Gibson is a traditional Catholic. A traditionalist lives the Faith as it has always been lived. I know he has depicted the passion as it would have been depicted in the year 50, 1050, or 1550. That is tradition.
If you go to Catholic mass at the church Mel Gibson attends in Arcadia, CA or the church he's building now, you will find that the mass celebrated there is the same as the Catholic mass celebrated in 1950, 1850, 1750, in USA, Japan, Germany,and Africa. In other words it was one mass for the entire world. It was said in Latin, one language for the entire world. If you wanted to understand every word and detail, you had a missal, which is a book that translated the entire service to you language. That's the
Catholic Church.
The word Catholic is Greek, and translates as universal, it was called the Universal Church because it was the same in all countries. The oldest written record of the use of the name Catholic can be found in the writings of St. Igatious of Antioch, who died in 107 A.D.
The Catholic Faith teaches that there are many religions, but the only true one is the Catholic Faith. The Catholic Church has been accused of being "authoritarian," "inflexible," dogmatic." It is all three, for the truth
is "authoritarian," "inflexible," dogmatic." It was never, and never can be, changed to suit the whims of individuals; it can never be swayed by a majority vote. This is true of human and divine truths. No democratic decree can change the law of gravity and no government, no matter how liberal, can make the sum of two and two five. Christ founded a Church to carry on His work of bringing souls to Heaven. He gave that Church the gift of infallibility, the grace, namely, of being protected by Him from error in teaching His doctrine, and every sane unprejudiced mind will admit He had to do this unless His mission as universal Redeemer was to fail.
The Catholic Faith is the only religion the is this way. There is no other religion which has a precise doctrine that must be followed to be a member. Every person that is not a Catholic and calls themselves "a christian", follows there own ideas. Each one is an individual following their own interpretation of Christ. It s the same in all religions, whether Moslem, Jewish, Protestant, or Hindu, in all these religions every individual follows what he thinks. It is only in the Catholic Faith that has doctrines that must be believed and lived, or one ceases to be a Catholic.
All the ancient churches that separated from the Catholic Church (mostly because of the pride of their leaders) like the Nestorian church, Coptic church, Armenian, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox, to this day believe in the same sacraments. How can anyone disregard all these ancient church's and say the Eucharist is not what ALL ALL ALL these ancient church's believed from the beginning and still do today.
In the very near future, maybe as early as tomorrow, one of your children will read the story of one of your grandparents. It will state in writing that your grandparent was a very gay fellow.Your grandchildren and all of their children will think your grandfather was a homosexual, when in actuality, the word gay did not mean that in the time it was written. In the same way, the bible-only reader comes to his conclusions, with no regard for history.
Anyone who wishes to understand what a Catholic traditionalist is can look up the web sites for The Remnant, SSPX, and Catholic Family News.
September 29, 2003 01:27 PM
Here is a section of the letter of Cyril to
Nestorius included inThe Coucil of Ephesus,
in 431 AD. This letter was in accord with
the Council of Nicaea. This is recorded
history. I found it on a separate site.
"The holy and great synod, therefore, stated that
* 1. the only begotten Son, begotten of God the Father according to nature, true God from true God, the light from the light, the one through whom the Father made all things, came down, became incarnate, became man,
* 2. suffered, rose on the third day and ascended to heaven.
* 1. We too ought to follow these words and these teachings and consider what is meant by saying that the Word from God took flesh and became man. For we do not say that the nature of the Word was changed and became flesh, nor that he was turned into a whole man made of body and soul. Rather do we claim that the Word in an unspeakable, inconceivable manner united to himself hypostatically flesh enlivened by a rational soul, and so became man and was called son of man, not by God's will alone or good pleasure, nor by the assumption of a person alone. Rather did two different natures come together to form a unity, and from both arose one Christ, one Son. It was not as though the distinctness of the natures was destroyed by the union, but divinity and humanity together made perfect for us one Lord and one Christ, together marvellously and mysteriously combining to form a unity. So he who existed and was begotten of the Father before all ages is also said to have been begotten according to the flesh of a woman, without the divine nature either beginning to exist in the holy virgin, or needing of itself a second begetting after that from his Father. (For it is absurd and stupid to speak of the one who existed before every age and is coeternal with the Father, needing a second beginning so as to exist.) The Word is said to have been begotten according to the flesh, because for us and for our salvation he united what was human to himself hypostatically and came forth from a woman. For he was not first begotten of the holy virgin, a man like us, and then the Word descended upon him; but from the very womb of his mother he was so united and then underwent begetting according to the flesh, making his own the begetting of his own flesh."
(Taken from a website with The Coucil of
Ephesus on it.- - search the net, I think it was
Daily Catholics but I used Google for The
Council of Ephesus.
It's not a good idea to disrespect your good friend's mother. Neither is it good to
disrespect the Mother of God, who by
proclamation of the Angel Gabriel, was
"full of grace."
And ,yes, it is OK to pray to Mary. She stands
as prime intercessor between us and Jesus
her Son. Our prayers could use a little
dressing up. I don't want to miss out on
any gift from Jesus. He must have thought
it was so important before he died while
hanging on the cross.
A peaceful anointing to all who read this.
And thanks to the Catholic Website for
providing the info.
Michele
September 29, 2003 07:33 PM
The Mother of God said, "henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (Luke 1:48). What does that mean when no one calls her blessed but Catholics and all the ancient churches that separated from the Catholic Church?
The "bible only" individualist abhors any sign of reverence for her. How could scripture be so wrong? What does scripture mean by all generations?
ANSWER: Generations means offspring having common parentage and constituting a stage of descent (American Heritage Dictionary).
Through Christ death on the cross, all humanity henceforth was given the power to become adopted sons of God (John 1:12), adopted brothers of Christ, adopted son's of Jesus's mother. If Jesus is our adopted brother, Mary is our mother. The "generations" that will call her blessed are her adopted children, the adopted brothers of Christ, the adopted sons of God.
Note that John 1:12 says to them gave He power to become sons of God. It does not say He Made them sons of God. It says that to those who receive Christ, God gave them the power to become.
There is much more involved in becoming a son of God than just receiving Christ. For one, the person must be without sin. Even a Catholic priest that is in sin, is not a son of God. He is not a son of God because he's in really a liar and a hypocrite. Till he cleanses himself of sin, he is a son of the body of Satan. He is of the City of Man, he is not of the City of God. SOUNDS HARCH!
"And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (1Peter 4:18)
Remember that the 5 foolish virgins low on oil (Mat 25:1-13), the man who buried the one talent (Mat 25:14-30), the man without the wedding garment (Mat 22:2-14),and the many that will say Lord, Lord (Mat 7:22), all made an effort, and still were all thrown to hell.
Salvation is not a simple matter. Christ said that few will find it(Mat 7:14)
September 29, 2003 08:16 PM
Wow, I couldn't disagree with the Catholic apologists more. But rather than reinvent the wheel, I give you this link.
http://www.pro-gospel.org/articles/being_deceived.php
September 30, 2003 08:27 AM
Replying to Joel,
I read the website you recommended. It, like thousands like it, are the opinion of one person, and on only a few subjects.It answers nothing of life's questions. He asks "Are you being deceived", and "The Importance of Your Source for Truth"? THOSE ARE VERY GOOD QUESTIONS!
Now, Either he is deceiving his audience today, or the Catholic Church has deceived the world for 2000 years. Where was he in 1850, let alone 100 A.D.? There is nothing new in the bible, since the time of Christ, millions upon millions of Catholic wise men have lived their entire lives studying all the documentation inside and outside of scripture. People much wiser than any of us, kings, prince's, the weathy, and THEY ALL came to be Catholics. The Catholic Church has answered ALL QUESTIONS.
This person to whom you refer me, could be a modern day wizard of Oz hidind behind his website. His website is just that, his. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old, there is no institution in the world that has lasted even 1/2 that long. Today it has 1 billion believers. However, that does not make all those believers Catholic. To be a true Catholic one must live 100% as a Catholic. I doubt if you'll meet many around you.
If you want to follow that Wizard of Oz's, I'd suggest you buy yourself a Catholic book on moral theology, preferable an old one(Moral Theology by Fr. Heribert Jone, publisher-TAN Books). It will answer ALL the questions about life you may have. A Catholic must follow every detail to assure himself that he is on the right path and not on his own convenient path. This website Wizard of Oz will not be able to advise you with certitude on one point covered on that book.
My method of seeking truth, is to go back 50, 100, 150 years, and read what was taught then, by reading the books directly. If anything was changed since then, I have to ask myself if these modern sources are not going to change their minds again? I know they're not reliable then.
An example of one of the subjects covered in a Moral Theology book, is contraception. Can I use contraception? All the major Protestant denominations prior to 1930's forebade the use of contraception. Check it up! It was this way since the time of Abraham. Today, only the Catholic Church forbids contraception. They have no choice, they can't change a law of God.
September 30, 2003 10:39 AM
These Wizard of Oz individualists argue everything from their own ideas of the bible. Yet it was the Catholic Church that decided what gospels and Epistle went into the New Testament! If these individualists don’t believe the Catholic Church, why is all their concept of Christ based on a Catholic book?
It’s all history. The Catholic Church at the Council of Carthage in 397 decided what books composed the New Testament. The bible as a book did not exist till then. There were spurious books floating about in the Christian Church, without a doubt in the early centuries; this is certain, because we know their very names; and it is precisely in her rejection of these, and in her guarding the collection of inspired writings from being mixed up with them, that we shall now see the great work that the Catholic Church did, under God's Holy Spirit, for all succeeding generations of Christians, whether within the fold or outside of it. It is through the Roman Catholic Church that these individualists have got their Bible; and yet there is not one that does not vilify and condemn the Catholic Church for her treatment of Holy Scripture, but owes it to that Church that he has the Scripture at all.
There were Bible books that were disputed, controverted, in some places acknowledged, in others rejected; and among these we actually find the Epistle of St James, Epistle of St Jude, 2nd Epistle of St Peter; 2nd and 3rd of St John, Epistle to the Hebrews, and the Apocalypse of St John. There were doubts about these works; perhaps, it was said, they were not really written by Apostles, or Apostolic men, or by the men whose names they carried; in some parts of the Christian world they were suspected, though in others unhesitatingly received as genuine.
In this class of 'controverted' and doubtful books, there were some to be found which are not now in our New Testament at all, but which were by many then considered to be inspired and Apostolic, or were actually read at the public worship of the Christians, or were used for instructions to the newly-converted; in short, ranked in some places as equal to the works of St James or St Peter or St Jude. Among these are the Shepherd of Hernias, Epistle of Barnabas, the Doctrine of the Twelve Apostles, Apostolic Constitutions, Gospel according to the Hebrews, St Paul's Epistle to the Laodiceans, Epistle of St Clement, and others. Why are these not in our Bible to-day?
There was a class of books floating about before 397 A.D., which were never acknowledged as of any value in the Church, nor treated as having Apostolic authority, seeing that they were obviously spurious and false, full of absurd fables, superstitions, puerilities, and stories and miracles of Our Lord and His Apostles which made them a laughing-stock to the world. Of these some have survived, and we have them to-day
We know the names of about 50 Gospels (such as the Gospel of James, the Gospel of Thomas, and the like), about 22 Acts (like the Acts of Pilate, Acts of Paul and Thecla, and others), and a smaller number of Epistles and Apocalypses. These were condemned and rejected wholesale as 'Apocrypha'-that is, false, spurious, uncanonical.
The very authors of the Gospels and Epistles are not identified in scripture. We know who they are because the Catholic Church tells us who they are. Does the Gospel of Mathew say, “I’m Mathew, the tax collector, the same one of the original twelve, I wrote this Gospel”? Does any book? Who’s Mark? He’s not even one of the twelve. How do we know the Paul of the Epistles is Saul of Tarsus? We know because the Catholic Church tells us so.
How do we know the New Testament is inspired by God? (yes, we know that “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice (2Tim 3:16)”, “For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:21)”, however, the New Testament did not exist when these individual letters said this. They were obviously talking about the Old Testament.) We know that the New Testament was inspired by God because the Catholic Church said so. If not so, they could have composed the bible of the 50 false Gospels, and then they would have been the “inspired by God” of 2Tim 3:16!
Who can deny any of this? The Church existed before the Bible; she made the Bible; she selected its books, and she preserved it. She handed it down; through her we know what is the Word of God, and what is the word of man; and hence to try at this time of day, as many do, to overthrow the Church by means of this very Bible, and to put it above the Church, and to revile her for destroying it and corrupting it- what is this but to strike the mother that reared them; to curse the hand that fed them; to turn against their best friend and benefactor; and to repay with ingratitude and slander the very guide and protector who has led them to drink of the water out of the Savior’s fountains?
September 30, 2003 12:59 PM
Hello all fellow Followers of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world! i have enjoyed reading all your insights and hopes into this awesome work by Mel Gibson. i too, am so looking forward to it and hopefully it will lead many many souls to salvation in Christ!
i just want to make one comment of something that jumped on me while reading through all your comments. There is so much talk about Catholics vs. Non-catholics and such like this. The true fact is, JESUS IS LORD. Read Ephesians chapter 4 about the unity of Christ's followers. Lets embrace our brothers and sisters in Christ not by denomination, but by brothers and sisters, all saved by grace through faith.
Jesus is Lord, and he is coming again!!! let's pull together and lift each other up through love.
God is so good...
September 30, 2003 03:33 PM
It's time for a "fruit inspection."
Peter has taken time and effort to explain the
reasons behind his position. To take the
precious time to teach even. I know he's not
just throwing around opinions. He backs them
up.
I smell roots. In good soil.
What he has pointed out is not rancid.
It's the hard truth. If one builds their house
on solid rock, their house will be left standing
when disasters come and go.
There is one clear, sober voice we can rely
on. That is the Holy Spirit's voice speaking
through the Pope. You might not like it. This was the same in Jesus' day. But some "things" never change.
I feel that there are enough signs around
to indicate that we are "as in the days of Noah."
And we all know how that came out.
Peace, Michele P.
October 2, 2003 02:54 AM
I just want to start off by saying PRAISE GOD and THANK YOU Mel for abiding in GODS vision for this movie! I feel that this movie is going to impact the WORLD!!
********
For those of you who have a 'passion' for this movie, THE PASSION and have a passion for the nation, please pay attention!
God has placed it in my heart to equip and start an event ministry for The Passion movie that is due to come out in April 2004. The vision is to have all Christians come together, putting aside our differences and going into theatres where THE PASSION will be playing in your community. Christians will be in the audience. After the movie, One of those people will lead the audience into the Sinner's prayer. LEADING unsaved souls TO CHRIST! If you want to be apart of this nation-wide movement, email Jenny at: JesusLoverJen@hotmail.com
October 3, 2003 10:40 AM
AMEN, JENNY!!!!!!!!!
October 3, 2003 01:11 PM
THE CHURCH
In this brief, I will present to the reader, the following propositions, substantiated by scripture, that:
1) - Jesus established only one Church, not a countless collection of competing churches (Lutherans, Baptists, Mennonites, the church on the corner, and so on) each clamoring for attention. God's plan is perfect, our Lord would never leave his followers a church that's characterized by anarchy, no fixed doctrines, and has as many faiths as there are people. Therefore, to be truly honest with oneself, one must infallible conclude that their church is Gods Church, for there is only one Church. Which one is it? It can only be one. Is it yours?
2) - There will be false churches, false spiritual leaders, false shepherds, wolves in sheeps clothing, who will proclaim the gospel of Jesus. All these will say Lord Lord, but will be sent to perdition. If your church is not the One True Church, "the Pillar of Truth" (1 Tim 3:15), you are in one of these false churches.
3) - One can't just say "I will save myself by following the bible". Nowhere does the bible teach this idea, to the contrary, it states quite the opposite. Moreover, the history of anarchy and splintering of the "bible only churches" highlights this error in thinking. The bible was not available (for all practical purposes) till the printing press was invented in 1450's (The first book ever printed was the Catholic Vulgate Bible. There were 17 versions of the bible printed in German alone before Luther was born!).
Our Lord did not say to the apostles "go and do the best you can till Guttenberg invents the printing press". How do the worlds illiterate learn the truth? Common sense alone should be enough to refute this notion that one's eternal salvation would rely on our own interpretation of one book. Are we to ignore almost 2000 years of study by doctors and saints? Would we disregard all past learning on any other subject matter? Would we start all over with each birth disregarding all knowledge accumulated by our parents, professors, scientists, economists, and engineers? Would we allow a person who has read one book about open heart surgery to operate on us? Our eternal salvation is not a hobby!
4) - There is no salvation outside the Church. Are you in the one and only Church where salvation is attainable if you work out your salvation (Phil 2:12)? Scripture does not say that anyone who has been in the Church will be saved, scripture says that being outside at death does guaranty perdition.
The foolish virgins believed, they performed good deeds (virginity takes sacrifice, and inplies purity), however, they did not do enough.
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be like to ten virgins, who taking their lamps went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride. 2 And five of them were foolish and five wise. 3 But the five foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take oil with them. 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with the lamps. 5 And the bridegroom tarrying, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made: Behold the bridegroom cometh. Go ye forth to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise: Give us of your oil, for our lamps are gone out. 9 The wise answered, saying: Lest perhaps there be not enough for us and for you, go ye rather to them that sell and buy for yourselves. 10 Now whilst they went to buy the bridegroom came: and they that were ready
went in with him to the marriage. And the door was shut. 11 But at last came also the other virgins, saying: Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answering said: Amen I say to you, I know you not.
13 Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour. (Mat 25)
October 3, 2003 02:41 PM
Hello Peter. thanks for your committment to the Lord Jesus. I want to add a few things to your comments though.
1) No where in the bible does it say that "there is no salvation outside the church." Romans 10:9-10, Eph 2:8-9, and John 3:16 clearly say this without a doubt. Please provide a scripture reference that points to being saved through a church. "The Church" that Jesus refered to (and the apostles) was actually the hearts of Christ's followers. This is what is refered to constantly in the NT epistles when Paul continually refers to followers of Christ as "the church"(ref. Acts 8:3, 9:31, 14:27; Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18,24; to name a few). "Churches" today that most know as buildings where we worship, are places to gather in fellowship with fellow believers to worship Christ, edify each other, and fellowship together. What church you go to has nothing to do with being saved by grace through faith in the work and life of the Lord Jesus. But like you said, there are alot of churches out there teaching false doctrines and leading people astray. The church you worship in should be 100% bible believing church, which by prayer and petition may we discern the truth being preached and teached where we gather together.
2) How can you say that "following the bible" is not taught and not a way to live your life by following Christ? this is THE account of Jesus' life! this is everything our faith is based upon. Jesus himself said "if you love me you will obey what i command"(John 14). What he has commanded is in the BIBLE.
3) We have to be careful not to put the traditions of men above GOd's Word. In Mark 7:6-9, & 13, Jesus harshly rebukes the Pharisees four separate times for: "Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."; "Laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men . . .",; "you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition"; and, "making the word of God no effect through your tradition."
These passages are a clear warning to us to check ourselves and ensure that we are not putting our traditions above God's word. I had to think and consider how easy it is for us to get carried away in our own beliefs and ideas, even making them "commandments of men" in contrast to God's law. How easy it is for us to become legalistic, or forget to check ourselves against God's word, and ensure that what we are saying, thinking, or doing is in accordance with His word, first and foremost.
Let us look to the Word to discern what is true, and may we do everything in love!!!
bros in Christ!!!
October 3, 2003 06:08 PM
JR, Thanks for expressing your ideas.
These ideas are your own, on only a few subjects. There are many more questions to life, but just with these few bible interpretations you've brought up, there are as many opinions as there are people. God is perfect, do you think God's design for our salvation,His "narrow road" could be so mixed up?
MY RESPONSE TO YOUR QUESTIONS WOULD NOT BE MY PERSONAL IDEAS. MY RESPONSE CAN ONLY BE WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS ALWAYS TAUGHT AND WHAT ALL CATHOLICS HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED. THIS RESPONSE WOULD BE THE SAME AS WOULD COME FROM EVERY REAL CATHOLIC FROM THE TIME OF CHRIST.
THERE WAS ONLY ONE CHURCH THEN. IT WAS NOT A BUILDING. IT WAS A VISIBLE GOVERNMENT WITH A HEAD (THE POPE), AND PRINCES (BISHOPS). IT HAD A CONSTITUTION (THE VERBAL TEACHINGS LEFT BY JESUS CHRIST) AND A SUPREME COURT (THE POPE & BISHOPS)TO INTERPRET/RESOLVE QUESTIONS ON FAITH, MORALS (HOW TO BEHAVE), DOCTRINE, AND DISCIPLINARY LAWS. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY.
THAT CHURCH DECIDED WHAT BOOKS ARE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT (FOR DETAILS READ MY PRIOR EXPLANATION ON THE NT). THE CHURCH CAME BEFORE THE NT.
EVERY CATHOLIC MUST FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF GOD AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT FROM THE TIME OF THE APOSTLES. WE DO NOT HAVE PERSONAL OPINIONS. HOW COULD WE HAVE CONTRARY OPINIONS, WHERE WE IN 1850, LET ALONE 100AD?
WE BEIEVE THE BIBLE IS THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD BECAUSE THE CHURCH TELLS US SO.
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ANSWERS ALL THE QUESTIONS OF LIFE.
THE BASIS OF EVERY OTHER SO-CALLED CHRISTIAN GROUP IS AS YOU SAY CORRECTLY "churches" today are buildings where we worship, are places to gather". There is no history, no doctirne, no answers to life's difficult questions, just sunshine-happy religion, and "fellowship". But don't get too deep into your interpretations of scripture, keep it simple or there will go the "fellowship".
To answer your questions:
1)YOU SAY: "The Church" that Jesus refered to (and the apostles) was actually the hearts of Christ's followers.
MY RESPONSE: That's your interpretation. The Church has never taught that. How could it?
It's been there since the time of Christ for everyone to see. A heart is very unreliable, and subjective thing. Reason must be part of the "heart". Your interpretation was not believed by Christians in 100's or 1000,we have there writings. Your idea is a novelty.
I'll get back later, my wife and kids are calling me away.
+
AMDG
October 3, 2003 09:10 PM
continuing with:
1)YOU SAY: there are alot of churches out there teaching false doctrines and leading people astray. The church you worship in should be 100% bible believing, which by prayer and petition we may discern the truth.
MY RESPONSE: Again that's your opinion.100% Bible believing means nothing. Anyone who does not believe the bible is the word of God, by definition, is not a Christian. It is a dogma of the Catholic Church. The problem is how these individuals interpret it. They're all over the place, 180 degrees opposed in opinions. The bible can be interpreted (twisted)as one wishes. Therein lies the problem. Like I said before; "it's anarchy, with no fixed doctrines, and as many faiths as there are people.
Every individualist says that by prayer and petition they have discerned the truth, that is, their own convenient truth. Man's fickle heart following his own convenience. I have a direct line to God. Man's Pride. Man's religion.
2)YOU SAY: "this is everything our faith is based upon (the bible). Jesus himself said "if you love me you will obey what I command"(John 14). What he has commanded is in the BIBLE."
MY RESPONSE: What He has commanded is in scripture but not all. THE PROBLEM IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE, THE PROBLEM IS IN MAN AND HIS INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATION. Read:
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written. (John 21)
12 Having more things to write unto you, I would not by paper and ink: for I hope that I shall. be with you and speak face to face, (2 John 1)
13 I had many things to write unto thee: but I would not by ink and pen write to thee. 14 But I hope speedily to see thee: and we will speak mouth to mouth. (3 John 1)
ANYHOW, THE NT BIBLE DID NOT EXIST AS A BOOK TILL THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PUT IT TOGETHER. EVEN THEN, THEY WERE WRITTEN BY HAND. THAT MEANS NO BIBLES TILL THE PRINTING PRESS 1450. EVEN TODAY ONLY 5% OF ALL LANGUAGES ARE WRIITEN. WHAT ABOUT THE ILLITERATE?
ALL YOU HAVE A BIBLE TO INTERPRET YOURSELF. HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S A PROPER TRANSLATION? UNLESS YOU SPEAK ANCIENT GREEK, HEBREW OR ARAMAIC, YOU'RE BLIND, WHO DO YOU TRUST AS YOUR GUIDE? I ENTRUST MYSELF TO THE CHURCH OF 2000 YEARS, AUTHORIZED BIBLES AND INTERPRETATION. IF I CAN'T TRUST THEM, THEN I CAN'T TRUST ANY NT BIBLE, BECAUSE THEY PUT IT TOGETHER. THEN I CAN'T TRUST ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS CHRIST.
3)I AGREE WITH YOU ON YOURS POINT 3, however, I don't think you have the point. Traditon of God is good. Traditions of men is the problem. The Pharasses were teaching their own convenient ideas.
St. Paul taught proper tradition:
14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether
by word or by our epistle.(2Thes 2)
6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us. (2 Thes 3)
Following tradition is the surest path to the truth. By what the Church has always done since the time of Christ we can be assured of having what Christ gave us, God's tradition. The traditions of men don't last. The Simonians, Cerinthians,Basilidians,Carpocratians,
Valentinians,Marcionites, Cerdonians,Ebionites, Docetae, Montanists, Encratites, Alogi, Monarchians,Adoptionists, Adamites, Antidicomararianites-ALL CALLED THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS. THOSE ARE JUST THE HERESIES UP TO 200 AD, TRADITIONS OF MEN, BLIND GUIDES, FALSE SHEPHERDS, ONCE FOLLOWED BY MANY. GONE! TRADITIONS OF MEN DON'T LAST LONG.
JR- No offense, but you are following your own interpretation of a Catholic book. You're ignoring billions of great minds that came before you. You've got the right book, but you need to have a guide you can trust, like the Ehthiopian eunch,
LET EVERYONE TAKE GOOD NOTICE OF THESE WORDS FROM A GREAT AUTHORITY:
27 And rising up, he went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore.
28 And he was returning, sitting in his chariot and reading Isaias the prophet. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? 31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. (Acts 8)
+
AMDG
October 4, 2003 02:27 PM
I am estatic about the release of this movie. I will defintly see it, and I will tell all my friends, relatives, coworkers, even people in the street to see this movie. Finally a movie that acurately potrays the bible without pollution from Jewish controlled Hollywood. I am sick and tired of these hook-nose, bagel eating, money grubbing, penny pinching, matza eating, zionist, greedy shylock, hebe, jew-kike, yids brainwashing the world with their lies. Of course they want to prevent the release of this movie. Anything that can be remotely considerd "anti-semetic" is taboo. But bulldosing a Palestinian families home is perfectly fine.
"In whatever country Jews have settled in any great number, they have lowered its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded..."
-Benjamin Franklin
October 4, 2003 08:35 PM
Regarding the previous comments by Piero. I was going to delete them, but I thought I was use them as an example instead.
This moron does NOT represent Christian belief according to scripture. God LOVES the Jews and has centered His plan entirely around His love for them. It was the Jews that God called into a personal relationship. It was through the Jews that the Messiah was to come, and has come, into the world. Jesus WAS a Jewish person!
The racism and uneducated bigotry spewing from the mouth of Piero is utter drivel. I am Jewish myself. But whether I was or not, I would take great offense to his comments.
You, Piero, are a bigot, and a disgrace. And if you claim to be a Christian, your beliefs and comments are a disgrace to our Lord.
October 5, 2003 05:27 PM
How do we interpret scripture correctly? How do we decern who is speaking the truth, from who is a blind guide leading us to the fall in pit?
There is no greater advise than the instructions of ST. VINCENT OF LERINS [ A. D. 434 ]That's right the year 434!
He shows himself also as a man of such remarkable perception that there is a certain timelessness to his writing. What he has to say of preserving the faith and of keeping to the rule of faith fits any period and all times.
Vincent develops the notion that our faith is based on the authority of divine Law, which must be understood and interpreted in the light of the Tradition of the Church. And this Tradition, if it need be discovered, is what has been believed in the Church everywhere, always, and by all. Vincent’s doctrinal principle does not exclude progress and development; but it does exclude change. For Vincent, progress is a developmental growth of doctrine in its own sphere; change, however, implies a transformation into something different.
ST. VINCENT OF LERINS says:
With great zeal and closest attention, therefore, I frequently inquired of many men, eminent for their holiness and doctrine, how I might, in a concise and, so to speak, general and ordinary way, distinguish the truth of the Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity. I received almost always the same answer from all of them, that if I or anyone else wanted to expose the frauds and escape the snares of the heretics who rise up, and to remain intact and sound in a sound faith, it would be necessary, with the help of the Lord, to fortify that faith in a two fold manner: first, of course, by the authority of the divine law; and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church. [Here, perhaps, someone may ask: “If the canon of the Scriptures be perfect, and in itself more than suffices for everything, why is it necessary that the authority of ecclesiastical interpretation be joined to it?” Because, quite plainly, Sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. The same passage is interpreted in one way by some, in another by others, so that it can almost appear as if there are as many opinions as there are men. Novatian explains a passage in one way, Sabellius in another, Donatus in another; Anus, Eunomius, Macedonius in another; Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian in another; Jovinian, Pelagius, Caelestius in another; and afterwards in still another, Nestorius. And thus, because of so many distortions of such various errors, it is highly necessary that the line of prophetic and apostolic interpretation be directed in accord with the norm of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning. In the Catholic Church herself every care must be taken that we may hold fast to that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all. For this is then truly and properly Catholic. That is what the force and meaning of the name itself declares, a name that embraces all almost universally. This general rule will be correctly applied if we pursue universality, antiquity, and agreement. And we follow universality in this way, if we confess this one faith to be true, which is confessed by the whole Church throughout the whole world; antiquity, however, if we in no way depart from those interpretations which, it is clear our holy predecessors and fathers solemnized; and likewise agreement, if, in this very antiquity, we adopt the definitions and theses of all or certainly of almost all priests and teachers.
To announce, therefore, to Catholic Christians something other than that which they have received has never been permitted, is nowhere permitted, and never will be permitted. And to anathematize those who announce anything other than that which has been received once and for all has never been unnecessary, is nowhere unnecessary and never will be unnecessary.
He is a true and genuine Catholic who loves the truth of God, the Church, and the Body of Christ; who puts nothing else before divine religion and the Catholic Faith, neither the authority nor the love nor the genius nor the eloquence nor the philosophy of any man whatsoever, but, despising all that and being fixed, stable, and persevering in his faith, is determined in himself to hold and believe that only which he knows the Catholic Church has held universally and from ancient times.
"Guard" he says, "what has been committed." What does it mean, "what has been committed”? It is what has been faithfully entrusted to you, not what has been discovered by you; what you have received, not what you have thought up; a matter not of ingenuity, but of doctrine; not of private acquisition, but of public Tradition; a matter brought to you, not put forth by you, in which you must be not the author but the guardian, not the founder but the sharer, not the leader, but the follower. "Guard," he says, "what has been committed."Keep the talent of the Catholic Faith inviolate and unimpaired. What has been faithfully entrusted, let it remain in your possession, let it be handed on by you. You have received gold, so give gold. For my part I do not want you to substitute one thing for mother; I do not want you impudently to put lead in place of gold, or, fraudulently brass. I do not want the appearance of gold, but the real thing. O Timothy, O priest. O interpreter, O teacher, if a divine gift has made you suitable in genius, in experience, in doctrine to be the Beseleel of the spiritual tabernacle, cut out the precious gems of divine dogma, shape them faithfully, ornament them wisely, add splendor, grace and beauty to them! By your expounding it, may that now be understood more clearly which formerly was believed even in its obscurity. May posterity, by means of you, rejoice in understanding what in times past was venerated without understanding, Nevertheless, teach the same that you have learned, so that if you say something anew, it is not something new that you say.
But perhaps someone is saying: "Will there, then, be no progress of religion in the Church of Christ?" Certainly there is, and the greatest. For who is there so envious toward men and so exceedingly hateful toward God, that he would try to prohibit progress? But it is truly progress and not a change of faith. What is meant by progress is that something is brought to an advancement within itself, by change, something is transformed from one thing into another. It is necessary, therefore, that understanding, knowledge, and wisdom grow and advance strongly and mightily as much in individuals as in the group, as much in one man as in the whole Church, and this gradually according to age and the times; and this must take place precisely within its own kind, that is, in the same teaching, in the same meaning, and in the same opinion. The progress of religion in souls is like the growth of bodies, which, in the course of years, evolve and develop, but still remain what they were. . . . For example: Our fathers of old sowed the seeds of the wheat of faith in this field which is the Church. Certainly it would be unjust and incongruous if we, their descendents, were to gather, instead of the genuine truth of wheat, the noxious error of weeds. On the contrary, it is right and logically proper that there be no discrepancy between what is first and what is last and that we reap, in the increment of wheat from the wheat of instruction, the fruit also of dogma. And thus, although in the course of time something evolved from those first seeds and has now expanded under careful cultivation, nothing of the characteristics of the seeds is changed. Granted that appearance, beauty, and distinction has been added, still, the same nature of each kind remains. May it never happen that the rose garden of the Catholic sense be turned into thistles and thorns. May it never happen, I say, that darnel and monk's hood suddenly spring up in the spiritual paradise of shoots of cinnamon and balsam.
We must most studiously investigate and follow this ancient agreement of the holy fathers, not in all the lesser questions of the divine Law, but certainly and especially in the rule of faith. . . . But only those opinions of the fathers are to he brought forward which were expressed by those who lived, taught, and persevered wisely and constantly in the holy Catholic faith and communion, and who merited either to die faithfully in Christ or to be killed gloriously for Christ. Those men, moreover, are to be believed, in accord with the rule that only that is to be held as undoubted, certain, and valid, which either all or most of them have confirmed by receiving, holding, and handing on in one and the same sense, manifestly, frequently, and persistently, as if by a council of teachers in mutual agreement. But whatever was thought outside of or even against the opinion of all, although it be by a holy and learned man, or although by a confessor and martyr, must be removed from the authority of the common and public and general opinion, as being among his personal and peculiar and private views. In this way we shall not, as is the sacrilegious custom of heretics and schismatics, reject the ancient truth of universal dogma, to pursue, with great danger to our eternal salvation, the novel error of one man.
October 5, 2003 11:25 PM
Hear, hear Joel! You are so right. God made His original covenant with Abraham. And our own Savior was Jewish. Christianity's roots lie in Judaism. When God called Abram out of his country He said, "I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU, AND CURSE HIM WHO CURSES YOU; AND IN YOU ALL (THAT MEANS ALL) THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED." (Genesis 12:2-3) Any Christian who is anti-semitic doesn't understand the Abrahamic covenant. If it wasn't for that, the Davidic line from which our Messiah came from wouldn't have been possible. If Jesus wouldn't have come, then all the families of the earth could not have been blessed by being able to taste of salvation through the Messiah. We should bless the Jews and not curse them. Anyway, Jesus does not see Jew or Greek. Galatians 3:26-29 says "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
October 6, 2003 03:12 AM
Wow! There's some serious debating going on here. I for one, like so many of you, applaud Mel Gibson's courage to do what he believes is right in making this film, even though by doing so he knowingly attracts the scorn and dissent of powerful Jewish communities that are prominent in his industry as well as most others.
When it comes to the religious aspect of this debate, I'm a Muslim and as such believe there are contradictions in the Bible that the Bible itself exposes. Hence this will doubtlessly be an enjoyable film, whether it'll be a valuable history lesson is another matter.
October 6, 2003 10:42 AM
Responding to Eamon,
Are you a secular Moslem, or are you a practicing the religion? If you are a practicing Moslem, to what sect do you belong? Where do you worship? Are you a liberal or a fundamentalist?
Can you enlighten me as to what is the oldest Koran existing? And also explain the 60 virgins in paradise that I hear so much about? I'm very serious about my asking.This is no joke.
October 6, 2003 01:39 PM
God Bless Mr. Gibson. I am a big fan of his and have always admired him because of his talent. Now that I hear about this new project (that I am looking so forward to seeing) I have become an even bigger fan of his. It takes a lot of courage and determination to do this not caring of what people could say. I am so glad that just like we have people who blaspheme against God and make plays that state that Jesus is gay, we have men like Mr. Gibson who are willing to stand,put it all aside and speak the truth about our Lord. God Bless him and his family.
October 6, 2003 06:00 PM
Hey Pete. thanks for the comments. Just wanna say a few things...
First of all, I am not "interpreting" the bible in any manner i choose. I am taking it word for word as it is written, and God-breathed(2 Tim 3:16).
Secondly, I don't follow any church. I follow Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, who died for me on Calvary. I am saved by Grace; not by ANYTHING that i have done(Eph. 2:8-9). This is why i pick up my cross every day, to follow Him. I follow His Word, which was given to us, that we might know how to die to self, follow Him, and become more like Him everyday.
May we follow the trail that leads to Him...
1 Corinthians 1:10-31
October 6, 2003 07:47 PM
Responding to JR,
When 2tim 3:16 was written, the New Testament did not exist. All references made to scripture were to the Old Testament. The only reason we say the NT is inspired by God is because the Catholic Church said so.
You are interpreting each line of scripture as you understand it, your interpretation is just that, "your interpretation".
How do you know that you are following Christ?
According the the Church that put together the NT (your source, your guide book for following Christ), you are wrong in the interpretations I've indicated.
We are saved by God's Grace, Not of works. . .as of our own growth, or from ourselves; but as from the grace of God. The Catholic Church has always taught this, however, it also teaches that we are not yet saved. The Church has never taught that we are saved allready just by beieving or professing Christ. That's a novelty and wishful thinking. (It is however a good way to get clientele to feel good and put money in the preachers basket.)
Always standing as a warning in the way of this self sanctifying idea that we are saved already, are innumerable scripture, to name a few:
The 5 foolish virgins low on oil (Mat 25:1-13), the man who buried the one talent (Mat 25:14-30), the man without the wedding garment (Mat 22:2-14),and the many that will say Lord, Lord (Mat 7:22), all of them "believed", and still were all thrown to hell.
Salvation is not that simple of a matter. Christ said that few will find it(Mat 7:14)
AGAIN, IT IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHO PUT TOGETHER THE NEW TESTAMENT, THE SAME NT YOU ARE INTERPRETING DIFFERENTLY THAN THEY WHO decided what books went into it, they who preserved it, and they who AUTHENTICATED it as the word of God.
THE INDIVIDUALIST SAYS
I believe in Christ, therefore I must have God's grace. This is my sign of predestination, I'm one of the elect, Therefore I am saved.
CIRCULAR LOGIC.
October 7, 2003 04:44 PM
Just the idea of a film called "The Passion"
has caused such a mighty display of
responses and concerns so far.
Someone with vision and intensity and purpose is actually putting his talent to serious effect.
That artist is Mel Gibson.
Hollywood has been spiritually bankrupt for
so long that they now sense a threat to
themselves. No one's jumping to offer
to distribute the film. And all they
want to do is cause Mel Gibson trouble.
Why is that?
I see an industry that cannot really tolerate
the truth unless it somehow supports
its views alone. Well, here it is:
Anything about Jesus Christ has got to
reflect the sign of contradiction. Because
that's what Jesus is. He is known as the
sign of contradiction. And every claim made
about him is unique. So that he cannot ever
be clumped together with any other person
claiming to be God or prophet.
Christianity has always claimed that.
To be able to see what Christ went through,
to absorb the emotional and spiritual impact
of those last hours will be like a sharing
in his "cup." I look forward to it.
Michele P.
October 8, 2003 12:37 PM
Re: Hollywood
When we had our first child 18 months ago, we decided to dump the TV. All I have left is an 8" black & white battery powered for emergencies (hurricanes).
I came to the conclusion that the family is like a fort, in that it must have four walls and no openings. If there are any openings in the castle, the whole structure is rendered useless, no matter how high or well built it is.
Here are just two openings that people today have in their family fort:
1) TV and Movies= brainwashing.
The goal is consenting sex for any age and any group (= homo/lesbian/animal), that is, if a child likes what is done to them and consents, no problem. Through TV, the idea of what is normal is brainwashed into the viewer, like for example fashions. Little girls 1.5 yrs and up dressed provocatively, Instead of dressing children like little angels, they’re dressed like Brittany Spears. They’re speeded up to mature and have sex as young as possible, so adults don’t have to hide anything from children. Even cartoons are brainwashing.
2) Parental Irresponsibility- If parents smoke, argue, yell, talk bad about each other, curse, over eat, dress with tight revealing/seductive clothing or dress sloppily(both, standard wear today), their children will do the same. Everyone is a role model for others. Even a 2 year old is a role model for a 1 year old.
If parents are perfect with regard to #2, but they leave the TV, then the children will see it all on TV. Some will say, “They’ll see it all around them anyways”,
I say, that’s a cop-out! It’s the parent’s duty to teach what is right and wrong, it doesn’t matter if the whole world is corrupt, the children will be educated to see that corruption and not be fooled by its allurements.
October 9, 2003 07:31 PM
PETER - I'm a Muslim and I'd be interested to know what you perceive to be fundamentalist because there's certainly a Hollywood-ised version of Islamic fundamentalism that's pretty much plaster-boarded all over the Western world. I for one am secular though your question seemed to draw a distinction between a secular Muslim and a practising one, which is wrong. I practice insofar as I try to live my life as a good person extending that effort beyond myself, friends and family but to business acquaintances and strangers. I believe in the unity of God and in his Messenger Mohammad, and I believe in Mohammad's (pbuh by the way, musn't forget that ;-) ) message being the same as that of God's prophets before him. They being Jesus, John the Baptist, Moses, Noah, Ismail and Isaac, Abraham and so on and so on.
About the oldest Koran in the world, it's my understanding that the parchments upon which the verses of the Koran were committed once recited by the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) to his followers, were accumulated and bound into a book (the Koran) by one of the Khalifa though I forget which one.
The sixty virgin thing: As with so much of Holy texts (Torah, Bible, Koran) they balance precision and detail with just enough ambiguity so as not to smudge the points they're trying to make whilst still leaving them interpretable across time. There's no set-in-stone interpretation of these virgins you ask of, but I have my own opinions.
Hope this helps
Eamon
October 9, 2003 08:47 PM
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October 9, 2003 08:48 PM
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October 10, 2003 03:54 PM
Reply to Eamon,
The Catholic Church is the only religion that has unity of history, doctrine, and hierarchy. It is the oldest continuous government, now almost 2000 years old. This is difficult for outsiders (Moslem, Jews, Hindus) to comprehend, since they have no such unity. A Catholic can't have his own "beliefs", unless it is in line with all Catholics before him. If for example, he does not "believe" in contraception, or he does not "believe" that the bible is the word of God, he ceases to be a Catholic.
In my world I don't run into many Moslems. "What do I mean by fundamentalist"? I have a Turkish friend (a secular Moslem), when I was in Turkey, he referred to the Moslems who dressed like Moslems as fundamentalists. By your description He'd call you a Westernized Moslem, a secular Moslem. You say "I practice insofar as I try to live my life as a good person extending that effort beyond myself, friends and family but to business acquaintances and strangers". Since there is no finite definition as to what a Moslem is, you are as you describe yourself.
When you say you "believe in Mohammad's message being the same as that of God's prophets before him, they being Jesus...
MY RESPONSE- I have to tell you that Jesus Christ was more than just a Prophet, he said He is God. He performed 1000's of miracles to prove it, and the biggest was his resurrection.
Regarding the oldest Koran- I’m sorry I didn’t explain myself well, I meant: what is the oldest complete Koran I can go see today? The oldest bibles one can see today are from the 300's.
Re: the 60 virgins your explanation- I would have thought that something like what paradise is like (60 virgins), to be thoroughly defined.
The Catholic Church explains the bible in detail, there is not one word in scripture which has not been studied and explained.
October 10, 2003 04:02 PM
BIG CORRECTION!!!
A Catholic can't have his own "beliefs", unless it is in line with all Catholics before him. If for example, he THINKS CONTRACEPTION IS OK, or he does not "believe" that the bible is the word of God, he ceases to be a Catholic.
October 11, 2003 01:32 PM
I applaud Mr. Gibson. Standing up for what he believes is right and making it world-wide takes courage and I think God is working through him for the better. I should hope that people can put aside their prejudices and just watch it. The Bible is the Bible. God loves Catholics, Jews, Christians, and ect. He loves everyone. So, let's try to put everything else aside and just praise God for dying for us, eh? lol
October 13, 2003 06:44 AM
Peter says, the Catholic Church put together the Bible, yet the Roman Catholic Church did not exist until after the 4th century when it departed from the faith of the apostles. Consider these teachings of Rome that were never part of the first century church:
The grace needed to attain eternal life can be merited (2027)
Catholics are reborn as sons of God and freed from sin through water baptism (1213).
Purgatory is a cleansing fire that achieves the holiness necessary for heaven (1030-31).
Jesus is offered daily as a sacrificial victim on Catholic altars (1367).
Venial sins are not deserving of hell (1863).
By performing acts of penance, Catholics can expiate their own sins and make satisfaction for them
(1459,1477).
(All numbers are references to paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which can be accessed from our web site: www.pro-gospel.org)
October 13, 2003 10:49 AM
Response to Mike Gendron,
It is your opinion that the Catholic Church did not exist till the 4th century. It is not supported by history. A man can create an eclipse by extending his arm and putting his thumb on top of the sun, but he's just fooling himself. In the same way, you are fooling yourself by saying the Catholic Church did not til the 4th century.
In my previous writings aboave, I explained how the New Testament was put together (Not the Old Testament!). It is a historical fact, that anyone can look up.
Your theory that the Catholic Church did not exist till the 4th century, might fool someone who has no interest in looking things up, however, anyone who shines a light on it will find where the truth lies.
Saint Ignatius of Antioch who died in 107 AD, is credited with the oldest written document that used the word Catholic. That is written.
Simon the Magician (Acts 8:9-18) was the first heretic to lead people astray by preaching Jesus. There were many others in the first two centuries, Cerinthians,Basilidians,Carpocratians,
Valentinians,Marcionites, Cerdonians,Ebionites, Docetae, Montanists, Encratites, Alogi, Monarchians,Adoptionists, Adamites, Antidicomararianites-ALL CALLED THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CALLED ITSELF CATHOLIC, MEANING UNIVERSAL, SO AS TO STANDOUT AS THE TRUE CHURCH, AS OPPOSED TO THESE LOCAL HERESIES. ONE CHURCH FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD, AND ALL TIMES.
THIS IS ALL RECORDED HISTORY. THOSE WHO HAVE EYES TO SEE LET THEM SEE.
October 13, 2003 11:37 AM
Response to Mike Gendron Continued:
Your opinions are just THAT, yours, and yours only. It is you, one individual, against the Catholic Church AND ALL THE ANCIENT churches that separated from the Catholic Church, and still exist today. ALL THESE AGREE WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S HISTORY AND LITURGICAL PRACTICES.
The quotes you give are from the New Catechism of the Catholic Church. I find that Catechism to be difficult to understand. I find it ambiguous and two-tongued, because it is trying to avoid teaching any "harsh things". I would not recommend it to someone trying to learn the faith.
I RECOMMEND YOU GET YOURSELF A CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT. That catechism is undiluted, it is precise, and is from a time when the Church spoke with regard only for the salvation of souls, without regard for
man's "sensitivities".
If you wish to attack the monolithic doctrine of the Catholic Church, you will find it much clearer and "harsher", in the Trent Catechism. If anything, it will make your job/attacks easier, since what you are seeking and preaching is the broad road, and that catechism is the very narrow!
The New Catechism of the Catholic Church is broader, to say the least. CATHOLICS SHOULD ALWAYS WATCH OUT FOR ANYTHING THAT SAYS "NEW", SINCE THE FAITH/CHRIST/BIBLE ARE ALL "OLD".
October 13, 2003 05:37 PM
PETER - Your last reply to me included the following:
'MY RESPONSE- I have to tell you that Jesus Christ was more than just a Prophet, he said He is God.'
Please kindly show me one verse in the Bible where Jesus says he IS God! being careful not to quote verses that either a: insinuate (without explicitly stating) or b: fail to distinguish his relationship with God as being more intimate than that of any other prophet before or after him.
The Catholic church was actually founded by the Byzantine emperor Constantine. If you study the political situation at the time you will learn that Constantine did not actually convert to Christianity (another term that was never decreed by Christ) due to his religious beliefs.
Constantine was a shrewd politician. In an era when the balance of power was shifting away from paganism to the expanding forces of Christianity, Constantine decided to adopt the growing force much as one 'backs the winning horse'. However paganism was still a formidable entity and in order to appease those of pagan beliefs he amalgamated pagan traditions and systems of belief into his new doctrine of Christianity. Christians to this day accept Sunday as their holy day of the week, and yet this was a tradition passed down from pagans who viewed Sunday as the day of worship for the Sun-God. This day was instituted for worship by the Emperor Aurelius and later, as I said, formalised into Christian culture by Constantine.
Read the following link where you'll find the following passage:
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sunday.htm
The Church made a sacred day of Sunday … largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun; for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance.
There are a number of other Christian traditions whose roots are largely unknown by modern day Catholics to be attributed from paganism.
If this is the case, and if as you acknowledge the first recorded Bible dates from the 4th century AD, how can you be sure that what the Bible contains is actually Christs' message to the letter? I mean you animosity don't get me wrong, I merely seek to present you with a counter-argument, for argument's sake ofcourse.
PS: The compilation of all the verses of the Koran was comissioned by the Khalifah Abu Bakr Al-Sideeq, the first Khalif to spearhead the Islamic movement after the death of the Prophet. As I understand it the oldest copy of the Koran that we have in modern man's posession dates from the mid 8th century, i.e. less than a generation after the death of the Prophet Mohammad pbuh.
Take care.
October 13, 2003 05:39 PM
PETER - By the way the above message should read I mean you NO animosity.....Typo, sorry.
October 13, 2003 09:48 PM
Responding to Eamon:
You ask me where in scripture Jesus says He is God. Let me clarify something to you, since you are a Moslem and may not know. The Catholic Church's teachings rest on the twin pillars of:
1) Tradition- what Jesus taught the original apostles and they passed on verbally and in writing (in writing that is not in the NT).
2) Scripture- Old & New Testament.
As an outsider looking in, and reading things written in the internet, you might have come under the impression that scripture is everything. That is only so for non-Catholics, individualists, who are all over the place with scripture interpretations.
A Catholic on the other hand interprets the bible as it has always been believed from the beginning by all Catholics. There are no individualists; there is only the monolithic Catholic Church. The same doctrines in the beginning, today and for all times.
I could quote you all the passages where Christ said He was God; however, you will interpret them in whatever way you choose. It will be your own interpretation, that's all. I WILL DEFER THE DEFENSE OF JESUS CHRIST'S DIVINITY FROM THE BIBLE ONLY, TO THE BIBLE-ONLY PEOPLE OUT THERE TO PROVE IT TO YOU.
What you have asked is a good example to prove my point that the Bible can't prove anything unless it is interpreted by a higher authority, a Supreme Court, that is, the Catholic Church. No other religion in the world has this characteristic.
In your religion, everyone interprets the Koran differently. There are almost as many sects as there are Moslems, all fighting amongst themselves. It is the same with all religions, EXCEPT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
I'll defend Jesus's divinity from tradition. His divinity is believed by all the ancient eastern churches that are ALL older than the Moslem religion, Nestorians, Ethiopian/Egyptian Coptics, etc. All the Eastern Churches that were crushed by the Saracens all proclaimed the divinity of Jesus. AND the Catholic Church is older than all these eastern churches.
The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. starting with the twelve Apostles and continues today 2000 years later. The Moslem religion has never had government or unity of doctrine.
You mis-read what I said about the New Testament, I DID NOT SAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE IN 397. I SAID THEY PUT TOGETHER THE BOOKS THAT MAKE UP THE NT. THE BIBLE IS COMPOSED OF 27 SEPARATE WRITINGS, WHICH WERE WRITTEN FROM A FEW YEARS AFTER CHRIST'S DEATH TILL JUST BEORE THE DEATH OF THE APOSTLE JOHN. THESE WRITINGS WERE READ IN THE CHURCHES FROM THAT TIME (7AD till 90AD). This is confirmed by the writings of the early Church Fathers. Writings you can read yourself today.
Regarding your quotes: “Constantine started the Catholic Church and Sunday is a pagan thing”.
MY RESPONSE IS: That is unhistorical, it is not supported by history, and it is just internet nonsense. It is written by individuals who hate the Catholic Church because it is always there as a rebuke to their lifestyle. This is nothing new.
The Church has always taught that the Apostles changed the Lords day to Sunday because it was the day He rose from the dead, and it is the day God created light, and Christ is the light of the world. Also, it was the day that The Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on Pentecost Sunday. The Old Covenant with the Jews ended when Jesus died, the New Covenant called for Sunday worship to distinguish it from the Jews.
(Don’t you think Jesus may have instructed them to change it to Sunday? He did spend 40 days with them, teaching them after His resurrection?)
By the way, was there a prophet that resurrected himself?
We have the writings of the early Church fathers, we have historical writers who were not Catholic (Josephus and Roman writers), and all confirm that the Catholic Church existed from the time of the Apostles. Constantine made Catholicism the state religion of the Roman Empire, and stopped the Roman persecution of Christians (which continues to this day). That’s history you can look up in any encyclopedia, and not just from some internet Wizard of Oz.
Now, why do the Moslems use Friday?
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AMDG
October 14, 2003 06:29 AM
I find it paradoxical that Peter sets himself up above the Pope who blessed and endorsed the New Catechism of the Catholic Church and yet defends his church as the true form of Christianity. Should we believe Peter or the "infallible" pope. Why didn't Peter answer the obvious contradictions between the Bible which reveals the true church and the Catechism which exposes the false church? The grace needed to attain eternal life can be merited (2027). The Bible says "No" (Rom. 11:6).
Catholics are reborn as sons of God and freed from sin through water baptism (1213). The Bible says "No, it is by faith in Jesus" (Eph. 2:8-9).
Purgatory is a cleansing fire that achieves the holiness necessary for heaven (1030-31). The Bible says "No, it is the precious shed blood of Jesus" (Heb. 1:3).
Jesus is offered daily as a sacrificial victim on Catholic altars (1367).The Bible says "Jesus offered Himself ONCE for all sin for all time (Heb. 10).
Venial sins are not deserving of hell (1863). The Bible says all sin is mortal and deserving of hell (Rom. 6:23; James 2:10).
By performing acts of penance, Catholics can expiate their own sins and make satisfaction for them (1459,1477). The Bible says "No." (Psalm 49:7-8).
Who will Peter believe: God's word or man's deceitful schemes to hold people in religious bondage?
October 14, 2003 09:24 AM
Responding to Mike Gendron,
Re: setting myself above the "infallible" Pope-
MY RESPONSE- I made a recommendation of a catechism, and the reasons for it. My choice, my opinion, was in favor of using the "Old", Catechism of the Council of Trent, because it is clearly written. It is my opinion that the Trent catechism is clearer. I add that there is no doctrine that says I have to use only the catechism of the current pope.
Regarding- “infallibility” of the pope,
MY RESPONSE- this is a complicated subject, misunderstood by even Catholics.
The pope’s personal ideas are not infallible. The current pope has not declared anything infallible to my knowledge. Catechisms are not infallible.
To be brief, infallibility means the final judgment on a matter that has always been believed by Catholics from the beginning. It means the end of all discussion and debate on the matter. It can’t be a new revelation; there can be no new revelation. All revelation ended at the death of the last apostle St. John.
As to answering your questions,
All those quotes you wrote are very brief, they don’t say much. There are Catholic libraries just on the subject of God’s Grace, and you are going to create your personal religion from one fragment, not even a sentence? What about all the other doctrines, there are thousands, since the Catholic Church answers all the questions of life? The Church has been there for 2000 years, everything is written. We know nothing about your teaching on more than a few ideas. Your ideas are just that YOURS ONLY.
I gave a brief definition of the Catholic teaching on grace, which you can read above(October 6, 2003 07:47 PM) . I focus here on grace because what you quoted (2027),is not Catholic as it stands. It is not the whole story.
Now, regarding the other lines, they are not complete. They also are just a line for doctrines that have libraries written about them.
Your contrary biblical quotes are your individual interpretations, THAT'S ALL, one person versus the monolithic Catholic Church, YOUR RELIGION IS BASED ON A FEW LINES. AMAZING!
The Catholic Church put together the books that make up the New Testament; they have preserved it pure till it was able to be printed by the printing press and thus enabling distribution to the masses. You are going to use that book to argue against what the Catholic Church has always taught? That makes no sense?
Nothing is new; any argument you bring up has been thoroughly debated from every angle, and decided long before you were born. It's just deja vu all over again
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AMDG
October 15, 2003 07:41 AM
Peter, please understand I do not have a religion, which is man's attempt to become righteous before God by doing what religious leaders command. I now have a relationship with my heavenly Father who adopted me into His eternal family after granting me faith in His Son and repentance from the false religion of Rome. Roman Catholicism is no different than all the other religions which developed in the minds of men for the purpose of controling the biblically ignorant. Every religion holds people in bondage by instructing them what they must DO instead of proclaiming what the Lord Jesus Christ has DONE. The Jesus of Rome is still doing what the Jesus of the Bible said "Is Finished." May God give you the grace to discern truth from error and repentance to escape the snare of the devil.
October 15, 2003 10:19 AM
Response to Mike Gendron,
You say: "religion, is man's attempt to become righteous before God by doing what religious leaders command".
MY RESPONSE: You are your own religious leader, you are doing what your religious leader commands, and you are attempting to make yourself righteous before God.
You say: "I now have a relationship with my heavenly Father who adopted me into His eternal family after granting me faith in His Son and repentance from the false religion...."
MY RESPONSE: How do you know for sure that you're adopted or that Rome is a false religion? ALL ALL ALL your ideas about Jesus Christ come from a book (NT) that was put together by the Catholic Church. Yet you say that same Church is a false religion? Why do you use their book?
Logic dictates to me that had the Catholic Church been a false religion, they would have chosen the 50 other Gospels, or more logically, would have destroyed rather than preserved the NT Bible. They could have let every generation interpret the NT as they pleased, and today there'd be total unbelief.
You say: "Catholicism is no different than all the other religions which developed in the minds of men for the purpose of controlling"
MY RESPONSE: You are correct in saying that all the other religions developed in the minds of men for the purpose of controlling. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS ESTABLISHED BY JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS GOD,and ALL THE OTHER RELIGIONS BEGINNINGS CAN BE TRACED TO MEN, THESE ARE HISTORICAL FACTS.
You call me: "biblically ignorant"-
MY RESPONSE: I'm a Catholic, I read the bible, I've read directly what the early Christians wrote about the bible, and I know the history of the bible. I leave it to those who read everything I've written on this site to discern whether this Catholic is as you call me; "biblically ignorant", "in bondage", and "under the snare of the devil".
+
AMDG
+
AMDG
October 15, 2003 11:04 AM
Response to Mike Gendron continued:
Till the printing press was invented in the mid 1400's, for all practical purposes, one could say that no one had a bible. This is because bibles were copied by hand till that time.
Then there was the problem of language. In what language were the few hand copied bibles written? If you could not read that language, that made even fewer bibles you could read. ADD to this that few were the written languages, and fewer were the literate that could read.
AND YET CATHOLICISM GREW FROM TWELVE APOSTLES TO BECOME THE RELIGION OF EUROPE. IT WAS THE RELIGION OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA (BEFORE BEING PRACTICALLY WIPED OUT BY MOSLEMS in the 600's).
THE RELIGION OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE, that is EUROPE/MIDDLE EAST /N.AFRICA WAS CATHOLICISM. CATHOLICISM WAS THE ONLY RELIGION OF THESE COUNTRIES.
ALL THIS LONG BEFORE THE MASSES COULD HAVE A BIBLE IN THEIR HANDS.
HOW CAN ANYONE THINK THE NT BIBLE READ/INTERPRETED BY INDIVIDUALS IS HOW CHRISTIANITY SPREAD? THE BIBLE FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, DID NOT EXIST FOR THEM TO READ TILL 1500 YEARS AFTER CHRIST!!!!!(IF THESE INDIVIDUALS COULD READ AT ALL!)
THE RESULT OF ONE INTERPRETING THE BIBLE AS THEY SEE IT, IS THE RELIGIOUS ANARCHY WE SEE TODAY IN AMERICA. EACH INDIVIDUAL IS HIS OWN RELIGION.
IT IS THE SAME IN ALL RELIGIONS MOSLEM/JEW/HINDU, EVERYONE IS HIS OWN RELIGION.
IT IS ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT THERE IS UNITY OF DOCTRINE AND HISTORY.
October 15, 2003 11:18 AM
AMEN MIKE GENDRON! thank you so much for testifying to the truth. JESUS IS LORD!!!
Peter, as followers of CHrist, we can do nothing to earn our way to heaven. This is where you err in your "religion". you stated above that our religion is "doing what your religious leader commands, and you are attempting to make yourself righteous before God". in putting this definition on it, you are totally contradicting yourself.
That IS religion. that is not what we follow. As followers of Christ from the beginning of the race til the end we are entirely, fully, utterly, and completely reliant upon the great grace of Jesus. He has done everything (Hebrews 10). We have no attempt to "make ourselves righteous." We aren't and we never will be. There is nothing we can "DO"... Our righteousness is found in the FINISHED work of Christ! IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT JESUS HAS ACCOMPLISHED...
we do not have a religion, we have a relationship with Jesus Christ who gave himself for the world.
thank you for your testimony, Mike. Jesus is Lord!!!!!! He has done EVERYTHING...
October 15, 2003 12:11 PM
Response to JR,
Your ideas of Jesus Christ come from a book put together by the Catholic Church. Without the Catholic Church you would not have the NT and you would not know anything about Christ.
Your writing is pure emotion. It has no reasoning, no history, no continuity.
You say I believe "I don't have to do ANYTHING!!!" I'M SAVED AND THAT'S IT,
AND YOU CAN BEHAVE AS YOU SEE FIT.
YOU HAVE SANCTIFIED YOURSELF (=YOU ARE ALREADY A SAINT).
WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS,LIFESTYLE, YOUR ANSWERS TO LIFES QUESTIONS.
THERE ARE THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF QUESTIONS OF LIFE THAT NEED TO BE ANSWERED, YET YOU ANSWER NONE OF THEM. YOU SAY I'M SAVED, AND THAT'S IT!
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ANSWERS ALL QUESTIONS OF LIFE WITHOUT CHANGE FROM CENTURY TO CENTURY, FASHION TO FASHION. YOU ARE ONE INDIVIDUAL DOING HIS OWN THING.
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AMDG
October 15, 2003 03:06 PM
Peter:
being saved is not something you say and forget it and then live anyway you want. Thinking down upon God's wonderous grace, and Christ's selfless act results in accepting the gift of eternal life that GOd offers through his Son(John 3:16), and wanting to pick up our cross daily and follow Him(matthew 16:24-25). Picking up our cross means living a life completely for him because he gave his for us. A life lived for Christ thirsts after holiness(hebrews 12:14-15).
I follow the bible, the complete God-Breathed Word of God. This is not something that you call "my own thing". i follow the word of Jesus Christ, the savior of the world and what he called his followers to be. Not men of tradition(mark 7:6-9, 13); but men of faith, and passion(romans 12:11), thisting after God. All this comes strait from the Bible, the word of God. ah yes, i know exactly what you're going to say. "there wouldn't be a bible if it weren't for the catholic church." ok, then please tell me where it says in the bible to pray to Mary. where in the bible does it say that Jesus didn't do everything to cover our sins so we must still continue to hold sacrificial ceremonies to cover our sins. where did these ideas come from and more importantly WHY DO THEY EXIST?
I believe the in the word of Jesus.
October 15, 2003 03:12 PM
Eamon:
here is the scripture reference you requested:
Philippians 2:5-11
October 15, 2003 03:12 PM
Eamon:
here is the scripture reference you requested:
Philippians 2:5-11
October 15, 2003 03:40 PM
Hey, JR and Mike G, whatever brings you to your
knees!
Playing Lone Ranger isn't the greatest idea.
And, unwittingly, that is what you psychologically
do when you shut out the truth of which Peter
speaks. He is not relying on his own wisdom
when he relates the fruits of his prayer life--
namely, the will to acknowledge the truth to
fellow believers in Christ. Uncaring and unloving
people would just let it go. No effort would be
put into trying to share with you his understanding of accumulated knowledge.
He is ministering unto the Lord by using his
ability to write and communicate in His honor.
No offense intended to you, JR or Mike G.,
but to not meet another man or woman on the level of integrity from which they speak could only
result in speaking volumes about you.
To debate requires informed individuals. Otherwise, you're leveled to graffitti status.
It's a "hit and run." And no one hangs around
for the consequences.
I'm glad that the promise of Jesus still stands.
"I will never ever leave you nor forsake you."
He was speaking to the 12 apostles. Jesus sent
His precious Holy Spirit to be with us in the
Catholic Church. Because with Him we can make it.
Any fiery darts of attack from fellow believers
only amount to spiritual lupis.
I fellowship with noncatholics and catholics alike. And we all need each other. I remain
committed to the Catholic Church and community.
This is out of spiritual conviction and not
anecdotal pick me ups. I surely
met Jesus my Savior in the Catholic Church. Jesus
fed me with Himself there. And Jesus forgives me
my sins, through the ministry of the Church.
And i have "fire shut up in my bones."
The Catholic Church is a gift-given "hearth."
Come warm yourselves. We are family.
Michele Peruzzi
October 15, 2003 04:15 PM
JR,
Why Mass every day? Because it says in Malachi,
"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, my name is great among the Gentiles, and
in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name
is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of
hosts." Chapter 1:11 Malachi
Prophecy, prophecy. Prophecy.
We plug into the blood sacrifice of Jesus.
He is not killed again. In a sense, we come
as a community before God to make a perfect
oblation to God. That is Jesus, risen and
triumphant. We connect with his blood sacrifice
on Calvery. We offer His Son to Him. Daily.
Hourly. In every place.
The Catholic Church fulfills this prophecy. 24/7
JR, get a hold of Scott Hawn's book,
"The Lamb's Supper." The Mass is the
Book of Revelation in action. There's a lot
you find out about this subject and Catholics.
Michele P
October 15, 2003 04:26 PM
Reply to JR,
The New Testament is the source of your knowledge of Jesus Christ. You called it the word of God. Again, it is the Catholic Church that said the NT was the word of God. The NT is called the word of God only because the Catholic Church declared it so. It was the Catholic Church who said who wrote each gospel and epistle.
[LET ME CLARIFY THAT:
- THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAID THE ORIGINAL INDIVIDUAL WRITINGS (GOSPELS AND EPISTLES), WERE INSPIRED BY GOD. THOSE WRITINGS DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DECLARED DOGMATICALLY THE ORIGINALS WERE INSPIRED BY GOD, AND WITHOUT ERROR. THEY DID NOT DECLARE ANY BIBLE IN EXISTENSE TODAY TO BE INSPIRED BY GOD. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ONLY TEACHES THAT THE BIBLES AUTHORIZED BY THE CHURCH ARE WORTHY OF BELIEF.]
Every verse that you quote can be contradicted by another verse or many other versus. Who decides what the true meaning is?
In your case it is you who decides. In my case I study all the wise ancients writings on the matter, from the time of Christ. I go with what the Catholic Church has always taught. A Catholic can't even follow an isolated priest or bishop, if they teach a different doctrine than what has always been believed! A Catholic goes with what has always been believed, this is his guarantee of avoiding error. Read above the instructions for avoiding error, written in 400's by Vincent of Lerins (Posted by: Peter at October 5, 2003 05:27 PM ).
It is not the ideas of one man, but the total agreement of all who have come before us. This is our guarantee that we are following the word as Jesus instructed from the beginning.
In your system each new generation completely disregards all previous wisdom, and interprets things as they see it.
The Catholic Church's doctrines rest on the twin pillars of tradition and scripture. Tradition, which came before the NT bible, is simply put, believing/understanding/doing things as revealed by Christ to the Apostles directly.
I don't see the point of quoting scripture to prove my point since you will believe what you want to believe, and interpret as you want to interpret. However, this one time I may, if my family gives me the time later.
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AMDG
October 15, 2003 05:01 PM
Wow, I had no idea this thread would become so popular when I initially started with a post about Mel Gibson and his movie, The Passion.
As for my position, I concur with Mike and JR. It is my belief that the Roman Catholic church is the world's largest cult, subtly placing just enough poison amongst the truth to make it deadly. Thankfully, I am part of the church of Jesus Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit for all eternity, without the need to be part of a man-made organization. There are those who desperately need to cling to identity in an organization in order to be validated, and there are those who are able to rest in Christ. As for me, I rest knowing whom I serve. I need no Priest, as I AM a Priest. I need no saints, as I AM a Saint. I have no need for Mary as an object of worship as Jesus Christ receives all my worship. I suspect that no amount of reason or logic will get through to those who are deceived, Mike. But prayerfully the Lord will work in the hearts and minds of those who are in bondage.
October 15, 2003 06:14 PM
Whatever it takes to get on your knees.
Attacking Jesus' Body will get you nowhere.
All men will come to an accounting. Too bad
you don't have a taste for Malachi.
The Catholic Church isn't selective in interpreting scriptures. I bet your pastors
say so many different things. Some follow
Joe, others Jim and still others are all over the place--who exactly can determine the truth?
Your different interpretations of scripture
do not have the medicines of God. Where is
your truth in action. All I've ever experienced
from these individuals was the whore-of-Babylon
interpretation. Fatalistic stuff.
What about the prophecies you have not picked
up on in Scripture? Sounds like you need help.
Scott Hahn, Biblical Scholar, used to be
from another church. He found Jesus in the
Catholic Church. I wonder why.
If you are searching for the truth, it
will lead you to the Eucharist. Remember
that hard teaching Jesus stressed?
"Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood..."
Seek the truth and you will find Him there
as food.
St Peter still has the Keys....through every
living Pope. You can't get around it.
My identity is in Christ. And I've been
born, born again, filled with the spirit,
refilled when I leak, fed with His Body and
Blood....literally, and taught how to pray.
That's validation enough.
Why do you need Mary? Why don't you ask her!
You'll get an answer. She still talks to her son.
JESUS IS LORD! Buckle your seat belts!
Michele P.
October 15, 2003 07:32 PM
Reply to Joel,
You say you agree with Mike and JR, however, if anyone scratches the surface the slightest bit they'll will find that you agree in very little. That is because your faith is based on a simplistic edifice, the lowest common denominator you could say. The lowest common denominator that you MIGHT agree with is that you are already saved. That's the extent of your effort to find truth. You say "I'm saved, end of story".
That your idea was unheard of even 100 years ago does not bother you. That the very book (the only book) you get your information from was handed to you by those you say are corrupt, does not concern you? You are right and the billions who came before you were ALL decieved all those years. YOU HAVE BROKEN THE CODE OF SCRIPTURE. YOU WILL USE A CATHOLIC BOOK TO EXPLAIN CHRIST TO CATHOLICS. That makes sense to you?
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AMDG
October 15, 2003 08:47 PM
Reply to JR's scripture quotes: For every quote you make I can quote the contrary. Who do we believe, who's the final authority? Here we go-
You say: "You follow the bible, the complete God-Breathed Word of God". MY RESPONSE: Have you killed your son yet? (Note 3 times, very clear!)
15 He that striketh his father or mother, shall be put to death. 17 He that curseth his father, or mother, shall die the death. (Exodus 21)
20 ....This our son is rebellious and stubborn, he slighteth hearing our admonitions, he giveth himself to revelling, and to debauchery and banquetings: 21 The people of the city shall stone him: and he shall die...(Deut 21)
9 He that curseth his father and mother, dying let him die: he hath cursed his father and mother, let his blood be upon him. (Lev 20)
YOU SAY: Not men of tradition(mark 7:6-9, 13);
MY RESPONSE:
14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether
by word or by our epistle.(2Thes 2)
6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us. (2 Thes 3).
YOU ASK: "where does it say that we must still continue to hold sacrificial ceremonies to cover our sins? "
MY RESPONSE:
For thus saith the Lord: There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel. Neither shall there be cut off from the priests and Levites a man before my face to offer holocausts, and to burn sacrifices, and to kill victims continually (Jer 33)
"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, my name is great among the Gentiles, and
in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name
is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of
hosts." Chapter 1:11 Malachi
YOU SAY: "you are already saved by your faith, and you have to do nothing":
MY RESPONSE:
Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James (2:19-20)
13 Yea, if I shall say to the just that he shall surely live, and he, trusting in his justice, commit iniquity: all his justices shall be forgotten, and his iniquity, which he hath committed, in the same shall he die. 18 For when the just shall depart from his justice, and commit iniquities, he shall die in them. 20 And you say: The way of the Lord is not right, I will judge every one of you according to his ways, O house of Israel. (Ezech 33)
27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others,I myself should become a castaway. (1Cor 9)
YOU ASK: "where in the bible does it say that Jesus didn't do everything to cover our sins"
MY RESPONSE; Please show me where it says that Jesus did everything to cover your sins, so you can do whatever you want and will be saved.
+
AMDG
October 15, 2003 09:33 PM
Reply to JR's scripture quotes: For every quote you make I can quote the contrary. con't
YOU SAY: "you are already saved by your faith, and you have to do nothing":
MY RESPONSE con't:
Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps also he spare not thee. See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Rom 11:19-22)
Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall. (1 Cor 10:12)
No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)
October 15, 2003 09:53 PM
Dearest Peter, JR and Mike,
I hope that we all recognize we are bretheren in Christ, and that that is the bottom line (I do believe that we all know that).
To JR and Mike, it is important to remember that the Protestant Church has in the past been guilty of sins and misinterpretations of scripture no lesser than the old Catholic Church. That is why I do not judge my Catholic brothers of today. I know many Catholics that love the Lord just as much as my protestant brothers. I have also met Catholics who are completely absorbed in tradition and do not know the Lord at all. Again, I know protestants who are the same way.
To you Peter, yes, there is a lot of power in the individual because of what scripture guarantees the individual:
1 Peter 2:9 - But you are a chosen race, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
1 Peter 2:5 - and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
The Word of God is clear that the individual himself comes before God to receive salvation. By the blood of Christ we have been given the authority to enter into God's holy presence. That is what salvation is all about!
Also Peter, the things that JR and Mike are saying are ALSO backed by a Church with scholars and theologians every bit as educated as Catholic scholars and theologians. We are not making up these interpretations on the fly, they have been taught to us by educated people (and the Holy Spirit of course), just as your theology was taught to you.
One more thing Peter, I do agree with you in the importance of the Church. Whenever I am discipling someone who has just come to the Lord, above almost anything else I stress the importance of getting plugged into a Church. You are right that it is the job of the Church to provide answers to questions which are not always so clear for the layman to interpret from scripture. I have gained much wisdom in MANY areas from both Catholic and Protestant theologians and scholars.
God bless you all, and farewell.
Sincerely,
Philip
October 15, 2003 10:05 PM
Dear Peter,
I also see your comments about the supposed protestant "one can do anything because one is saved" doctrine.
Romans 6 is very clear on this:
Romans 6.1-15
What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not!
How can we who died to sin yet live in it?
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin.
For a dead person has been absolved from sin.
If, then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.
We know that Christ, raised from the dead, dies no more; death no longer has power over him.
As to his death, he died to sin once and for all; as to his life, he lives for God.
Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus.
Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires.
And do not present the parts of your bodies to sin as weapons for wickedness, but present yourselves to God as raised from the dead to life and the parts of your bodies to God as weapons for righteousness.
For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? Of course not!
October 16, 2003 01:45 AM
Mr. Gendron, glancing down through this "conversation", I read your note, and appreciated your statement on "religion". I also believe that religion is man trying to get to God, and therefore I prefer to not have a "religion" but KNOW that I reached out to God and HE graceously and mercifully saved me ETERNALLY!
As for all the Catholics out there... just a couple thoughts.
1- Did Jesus ever persecute (as in physically MURDER) anyone?
- If He didn't, and the Catholic church is supposed to be from him... then why have and do they?
- There is only ONE group of people who have NEVER persecuted anyone...including those who persecuted us. Check out history, the Montanists, Novatians, Donatists, Paulicians, Catharists, Petrobrussians, Henricians, Albigenses, Waldenses and some Anabaptists. If you study Catholic history on these people, you will probably find all the "heretic" charges against them. But they are the ones who have kept our faith and heritage alive, even THROUGH all the worlds persecutions. I for one, am PROUD to be an American, but even more proud to be a INDEPENDENT, INDIGENOUS, FUNDAMENTAL BAPTIST !
2- If we are to PRAY to the VIRGIN Mary, and thank and respect her, and believe in her. I'd sure like to meet her, because even YOUR Bible (catholics) as well as mine, tells me that Mary and JOSEPH had children, and so Mary is NO LONGER A VIRGIN. If you'd like to pray to THE VIRGIN Mary, you'll have to find a virgin alive today who's name is Mary, and while your praying to her, you might ask her never to lose her virginity so you don't have to find another VIRGIN Mary to pray too....
October 16, 2003 06:45 AM
Reply to Philip's October 15, 09:53 PM,
Truth is what one must seek. One must even abandon their own mother, father, sister and all their possessions to find truth.
One does not follow Jesus Christ, Islam, or Carl Marx, one must only follow truth. This is the sure path to the narrow gate that leads to salvation.
The most important weapon in the search for truth is willingness for complete abandonment of ALL the things that stand in the way of finding truth. One may have to leave behind family, friends, congregation, their profession, there worldly loves, and everything else that gets in the way of acquiring truth.
THERE ARE FEW WHO WILL DO THIS! JESUS CHRIST SAID "MANY SHALL TRY TO ENTER THEREIN, BUT FEW SHALL FIND IT".
I sought that truth, with no preconceived prejudices; I learned all the "answers out there":
New Age-"Castaneda-ism", transcendental meditation, Deepak Chopra, etc.
Protestantism
Spiritualism
Communism
My method for finding truth is to seek consistency; one thing must be part of another. I stay alert for inconsistencies (=errors). When I find errors, I study that aspect THOROUGHLY, since I could be the one who is wrong. I study it with no preconceived prejudices (=pre-judged- ments), for I have no attachments, my only trophy is truth.
I ONLY FIND “THAT” CONSISTENCY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. IT IS THE ONLY RELIGION/WAY OF THINKING
THAT HAS UNITY OF HISTORY, GOVENRMENT, AND DOCTRINE. IT HAS MORE DOCTRINE WRITTEN ON THE SUBJECT OF GRACE ALONE THAN ALL THE DOCTRINE COMBINED OF ANY OTHER RELIGION! IT IS THIS PRESCISION, PRESCISION THAT NO OTHER RELIGION/ PHILOSOPHY HAS.
JESUS CHRIST AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAVE NO DISPLEASURE WITH THOSE WHO SEEK TRUTH, FOR THEY WILL FIND THAT TRUTH ONLY IN JESUS CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH.
NO RELIGION HAS THIS UNITY AND PRESCISION OF DOCTRINE. THERE ARE SOME PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS THAT HAVE WRITTEN THEIR THOUGHTS ON SUBJECTS (ANGLICANS, LUTHERANS, AND CALVINISTS); HOWEVER, THESE ARE NOT AGREED TO BY THEIR OWN CONGRETAIONS, LET ALONE, THE OTHER DENOMINATIONS. THEY ARE JUST WRITTEN DOWN THOUGHTS. THAT IS NOT UNITY OF DOCTRINE.
+
AMDG
October 16, 2003 07:04 AM
Hello to all,
In reading all the responses, I can appreciate
everyone's heartfelt comments. And it is good to
talk about these issues. We are all brothers and
sisters in Christ.
It would naturally remain a concern, as rumors
would be, to clarify who and what is true.
"Test every spirit..." the bible advises.
Sometimes we don't get instant answers to things.
We have to wait, as the apostles did for the
coming of the Holy Spirit. Did they know how
long that would be? I don't think so.
Therefore, on the subject of Mary, it would not be wise to rush to judgement.
She is who she is because God willed it so.
What part does she play in the order of
salvation? She is the second Eve, because God
willed it so. By His will she was made holy.
Why? What for? Who does she think she is?
I couldn't perceive throwing her around like a
rag doll as some do. I happily accept that she
is the woman who said yes to God. Mary is someone
whom I want to speak with, because she is the
mother of my savior. And because Jesus still
talks to His mother. She stood at the foot of
the cross and went through her son's death
with Him. She was solace to her savior. Jesus
loved her. I want to love her, too. He knew her.
He knew her value. He knew her "yes."
We know she is "ever virgin" because in the
order of grace it is "fitting" that she be so.
The "brothers" mentioned in scripture would
refer to cousins as well.
Wouldn't the Catholic Church be stupid to
to keep saying "brothers," openly, if they
weren't sure of her status as "ever virgin"?
They acknowledge the ancient languages without
prejudice. It is not threatening because the order
of grace, God's grace, is not threatening.
It is salvific! For her womb to be under the
dominion of Satan for one second would not
be "fitting." Her womb was the "ark" that
carried Jesus. Her "yes" was full and complete.
As Catholic Christians we take Mary home in
our hearts, as Jesus told us to do from the
cross. I am not ashamed of her, nor do I hide
her. Jesus didn't. He was pleased to give her
to us.
The experience of this is ever so peaceful.
She continues to be there for you, as she was for
Jesus. He loves her dearly. He just wanted us
to have her, too. Another gift from the cross.
You are free to reject her, forget about her,
or to ignore her if you choose.
She stands with me in prayer. Remember the
miracle at Cana? The waiters went to Mary to
tell her the couple ran out of wine. They could have gone to Jesus. They didn't. All she did
was tell Jesus about it. She didn't tell him
what to do, but he got the message. She told the waiters to do "whatever he tells you to do."
Jesus performed his first public miracle.
It stands as a clear testimony to her influence
with him.
His "time had not yet come." Something happened
between his involvement and the turning of water
into wine.
She interceded for the young couple.
She has sway in heaven, as she did at Cana.
Jesus has given us to her at the foot of the
cross as her sons and daughters.
If you're low on wine, she's a good one to tell.
That is how we catholics see her.
Peace,
Michele Peruzzi
October 16, 2003 08:54 AM
Reply to Philip,
THE BIG INCONSISTENCIES OF PROTESTANTISM:
1) There is no Protestant Church. It's not in the phone book. There are a countless collection of competing churches (Lutherans, Baptists, Adventists, Unitarians, Mennonites, the church on the corner, and so on) each broken down even further into a collection of splintering groups, all with no fixed doctrines, and within each church building further broken down to as many different beliefs as there are people. Basically it is anarchy, and just a glorified individualism. They can't agree on anything except that they are "protesting" the Catholic Church. IT WOULD BE A TOTAL MIS-USE OF LANGUAGE, AND IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF MENTAL GYNASTICS TO SAY THAT IS "A" CHURCH.
"Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. (Mat 10:25)"
2) There was not a single Protestant in the world till Martin Luther (a Catholic priest). Not one single Protestant. Not one Protestant till 1500 years after Christ. Europe was all Catholic. Anyone with European blood lines in all probabilities had Catholic forefathers.
3) The only source for Protestants knowledge of Jesus Christ is a book (NT), a book put together, authenticated, and preserved pure by the Catholic Church. A book each "individualist" now lives as he wants WITHOUT REGARD, WITH EVEN DIDAIN, FOR ALL THAT CAME BEFORE HIM TO BRING HIM THIS KNOWLEDGE. EACH GENERATION DISREGARDING ALL PREVIOUS HISTORY, AND STARTING ON THEIR OWN.
THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE ON THE PATH OF TRUTH (THOSE WHICH CAN ONLY BE IDENTIED BY GOD, WHO KNOWS OUR INNER THOUGHTS), WHO ARE ONLY PASSING THROUGH THIS "INDIVIDUALISM", FOR THOSE GOD HAS NO DISPLEASURE.
ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO ARE OUR "BROTHERS", AND WHO ARE WOLVE'S IN SHEEPS CLOTHING.THERE IS ENOUGH WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE ABOUT HERESIES AND HERETICS WHOM WE MUST AVOID, AND NOT FOLLOW. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS THERE FROM THE BEGINNING, AND ALL THE OTHERS WERE THE HERETICS.
EITHER THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE CHURCH OF GOD, AND ALL OTHERS ARE HERESIES OR CHRIST IS A LIER, FOR HE SAID THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL, AND THERE IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH 2000 YEARS LATER IN ALL IT'S UNITY, PREVAILING, AND THE PROTESTATIONS STARTED BY MARTIN LUTHER IS TODAY TOTAL INDIVIDUALISM and ANARCHY.
I CAN'T JUDGE JOEL, JR, OR MIKE FOR BEING CHRIST BELIEVING INDIVIDUALISTS, FOR I CAN'T READ THEIR HEARTS. I DO KNOW ONE THING, IF THEY "GET PLUGGED INTO ANOTHER FALSE CHURCH", IT MAY JUST DELAY THEM OR COMPLETELY SIDELINE THEM FROM THE PATH OF TRUTH.
+
AMDG
October 16, 2003 09:28 AM
Philip, thank you for your comments. We are all sinful creatures in need of a Savior, the Lord Jesus.
It is important to also remember that we ARE all brothers and sisters in Christ. He is the only thing that matters. IT is all GRACE... it is all God... it is all what Jesus has accomplished on the cross... Love you all!!! even you, Peter!!! ^_^
Keep living for Jesus!!!!!!
October 16, 2003 09:45 AM
ALL READ! This page has gotten way to long. I am starting a NEW thread on my blog today. You will find it as an entry on October 16th. Please feel free to continue the discussion there. No more posts here!
Thanks!
Joel
October 16, 2003 06:39 PM
Please remember, boys and girls...the only time religion itself is bad, is when the message is diluted by man. There is no religion that teaches outright evil,(excluding Satanism, Nazism, KKKism, etc) but it is possible that evil can be created when one spends too much time and energy trying to personify the minor differences, and saying who is wrong and who is right. I for one say...GO MEL...GO MEL...GO MEL!!! Release the film how you see fit...I'll still go see it! I believe Mel Gibson would pay no ill will to this subject whether it be fact or fiction.
October 18, 2003 11:02 PM
well I think Mel Gibsons.The passion will be a success.....
As for the Russian Orthodox or the Greek Orthodox known as the east ...and Roman Catholic as the West .......
In 1054 the West Roman Catholic Church was the one that broke away from the true faith and teachings and canons and laws set up by the 7 ecumenical councils,the last one at the year 787A.D which today is still the same in the Greek and Russian Orthodox Church as was before the 1054 schism...
Making up lies about who has the true faith does no one any good and neither does posting material that are just LIES ....
there was no papal infallibility before 1054...
there was faith and one teaching all over ....One Holy Catholic(universal) and Apostolic Church....ONE FAITH ALL THE SAME TEACHINGS .....
It was not the Estern Church that changed BUT the WEST that saw different and changed it according to their own teachings.....why the need for new teachings when the APOSTLES themselves had all things TRUE.
But there will come a time when the East AND West will again be one Holy Catholic And Apostolic church....but without the invention of the PAPAL infallibility....
Mel Gibson....good on you and may God bless you and your family..
October 20, 2003 03:42 PM
IT IS WITH GREAT ADMIRATION AND RESPECT, THAT I HAVE READ ALL THESE COMMENTS ABOUT MEL GIBSON'S COURAGEOUS FILM PORTRAYING THE DEATH OF OUR SAVIOUR. PEOPLE OF GREAT FAITH, PEOPLE OF SPLENDID SPIRITUALITY ARE MORE THAN RIGHT EXPRESSING FROM THEIR HEARTS THAT HISTORY CANNOT BE CHANGED...EVERYTHING HAPPENED AS IT HAPPENED...AS MR. GIBSON IS MAKING IT A GIFT FOR US TO SEE. ONE THING CANNOT BE...AND THAT IS THAT WE ALL GO BACK IN TIME TO THAT HORRENDOUS CRIME SCENE, BUT MR. GIBSON MAKING EXCEPTIONAL GOOD USE OF MODERN CINEMATOGRAPHY...ALLOWS US, IN THIS FASHION TO TRAVEL BACK IN TIME 2000 YEARS AGO TO BE WITNESSES OF THAT UNBEARABLE PAIN, THAT FOR MOST SEEMS INHUMAN, ALMOST OUT OF SATAN'S OWN CHAMBERS WHERE HIS LEAGUE OF DEMONS, BEING THESE THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND THE ROMAN SOLDIERS REPRESENTED IN PALESTINE BY THE COWARD, PONTIOUS PILATE, CARRIED OUT THE MOST UNJUST, DANTESQUE CRIME OF ALL --THE DEATH OF THE MAN HIMSELF- THE DEATH OF THE SON OF GOD--
ALL THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE ATTACKING THIS WORK OF ART IN ANY WHICH WAY ARE JUST DECEIVING YOURSELVES..YOU ARE TRYING TO "HIDE THE SUN WITH YOUR THUMB" LIKE WE SAY IN SPANISH AND BY DOING THIS THEY ARE ATTACKING GOD HIMSELF, AS THEIR TRUE AND ONLY ENEMIES.
TO YOU MR.GIBSON FIRST OF ALL MAY GOD BLESS YOU AND ALL YOUR GENERATIONS TO COME FOR YOU ARE GIVING GLORY AND PRAISE TO HIM WHO SAID: "THOSE WHO GIVE GLORY TO ME GIVE GLORY TO MY FATHER, AND WILL INHERIT HIS KINGDOM WHERE THEY SHALL LIVE FOREVER"
THE JEWISH PEOPLE MIGHT RUN THE WORLD, THE PHYSICAL, FINANCIAL WORLD THAT COMES TO AN END AS ALL MATERIALISTIC THINGS MUST....BESIDES HAVING BEEN THE ONES IN CHARGED OF JESUS' EXECUTION BY THE ROMAN SOLDIERS, THROUGHOUT TIME HAVE NOT BEEN LOYAL TO HIS OWN PEOPLE BY NOT HAVING ACCEPTED JESUS AS THE MESSIAH, BY NOT RECOGNIZING HIM...AND BY NOT BELIEVING IN GOD'S ONLY SON, REJECTING HIM IN THE MOST HUMILLIATING WAY SENT TO THIS PLANET EARTH BY THE HOLLY SPIRIT TO BE BORN FROM THE MOST PRECIOUS VIRGIN MARY, 2000 YEARS AGO, THEY ARE CONDEMNING THEMSELVES TO ETERNAL DAMNATION---'BECAUSE THEY ARE DENYING HIS TRULLY AND HOLLY NATURE, THEY MIGHT RUN THE EARTH,BUT THAT WILL BE JUST ABOUT IT..THEY MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO SEE THE MAGNIFIFICENT GATES OF HEAVEN. SO IT IS WRITTEN I AM JUST REPEATING THE WORD OF GOD..."FOR ALL THOSE WHO SHALL NOT BELIEVE IN ME"
HEY JEWISH PEOPLE, YOU ARE WAITING FOR YOUR MESSIAH...IT WILL BE TOO LATE WHEN YOU SHALL RECOGNIZE JESUS ON JUDGEMENT DAY, WHERE HE WILL NOT COME AS THE LAMB BUT AS THE LION... SO UNFORTUNATE FOR YOU THAT THEN AND ONLY THEN YOU SHALL BELIEVE AND REGRET ALL THE TIME YOU WASTED ON EARTH NOT ADORING YOUR ONLY GOD BORN AMONG YOU WHO KILLED HIM. 2000 YEARS AGO YOUR ANCESTORS WERE COVERED IN SHAME FOREVER WITH HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD.
Roxana
October 20, 2003 06:33 PM
Had we been there 2000 years ago, we would have been cheering him as the Mesiah one week and yelling to crucify him the next. Nothing would have been different.
The Jews could not run anything today if it were not for the people of the "City of Man". We have ourselves to blame for not living by the Gospel.
I think it was St. Philip Neri who use to pray every day this prayer:
"Sustain me this day O'Lord or I shall betray thee."
October 21, 2003 10:54 AM
I CONGRATULATE MR. GIBSON BECAUSE HE IS SAYING THE TRUTH, THE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
IF THE JEWISH PEOPLE DO NOT ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THEY PUT JESUS TO DEATH UNDER PONTIOUS PILATE...MAYBE THEY ARE JUST TOO ASHAMED OF THE HAVING COMMITTED THE CRIME OF CRIMES -WITHOUT A JUDGEMENT - FOR THE MOST JUST MAN THAT HAS EVER EXISTED ...JUST BECAUSE HE CALLED HIMSELF BY HIS REAL NAME "I AM THE SON OF GOD" WHICH THEY THOUGHT WAS BLASPHEMY!!!!
I WISH THAT ON EARTH THERE WERE ZILLIONS OF MEL GIBSONS, STATING THE TRUTH WITH COURAGE IN THE NAME OF OUR FAITH. HE WHO DOES NOT DEFEND HIS FARTHER DESERVES TO BE CALLED LESS THAN A WORM CRAWILING ON FILTHY GROUNDS
October 21, 2003 10:20 PM
I stand amazed at Mr. Gibson and his courage to produce and direct such a controversal movie. I know that our Lord has guided and directed him to speak the truth and to show the world exactly how death by crucifixion really was. People who say how crazy Christians are should be able to see why we love our Lord so much. Tell me those of you who disagree, what friend do you have who loves you so much that they would die such a horrific death for you? There is not one among us, but Christ did. Mr. Gibson has done his job by portraying a true crucifixion hopefully we will all be humbled as we see the love Christ had for us by suffering the way He did. I pray those who have the authority will permit this project to be seen as it should be. With all the garbage and violence out there the witchcraft, vampire and Satanic movies I have yet to see Hollywood oppose one of them. Now who's being persecuted and having religious freedoms taken away? Oh yes that would be us, the Christians. If we want to see a movie without subtitles, which by the way would be a welcomed change since the language in most of the films out there is very offensive, who is Hollywood to say no? Since when does Hollywood make decisions for the rest of the country? Is this what America has become? A country led by ACTORS who promote trash, anti Christianity and try to divide this nation by their political views talking against our president? Talk about the pendullum being over in LEFT field. When will it stop? We need more people in Hollywood like Mel Gibson. My question is "who else will step up to the plate"? Thank you Mr. Gibson and may God Bless you and your entire family.
October 22, 2003 07:33 PM
Hello to all,
It may appear that some people who sleep in
spine-correcting,king-size beds will try to
stop this movie from being distributed.
It won't happen. When the Holy Spirit started
to move on the movie set, he had a plan.
I suspect he'll finish it.
I'm hoping Mel won't water anything down in
the editing room. I want to see the
DIRECTOR'S CUT. Without subtitles.
Hey, Roxie, maybe believers will start coming
out of the woodwork now that Mr. Gibson has
taken the lead. We need more exploration and expression of reality by deeply spiritual artists.
It's a vocation. Something like this can only
come out of an intense and honest prayer life.
Michele P.
October 23, 2003 05:50 PM
God Bless Mel Gibson for having the courage to put the truth about Christ out there for the world to see. This movie will be an A++
October 26, 2003 12:15 AM
It's too bad I don't believe in hell. I'm sure all of you hateful blood-worshipers would be heading there soon.
October 27, 2003 03:26 PM
People debate and argue all the time.
It's nothing new. And, for the most part,
folks here have been expressing their
points of view passionately. But one doesn't
have to take comments personally.
What was it that set you off?
Peace,
M. Peruzzi
October 27, 2003 04:16 PM
Let's just say this movie is going to have a good impact in the world and I hope people's eyes will open up. Big APPLAUSE for Mel Gibson AND I truly believe Hollywood will be stunned by the box office records. No one wants to hear about God anymore, but Mel is going to change that. We need to pray and put up a fight against Satan.
October 28, 2003 07:09 AM
THE UNIVERSAL RIGHTS OF CHRIST
In his encyclical, Quas Primas, Pope Pius XI reaffirmed the unbroken teaching of his predecessors upon the papal throne that states as well as individuals must submit themselves to the rule of Christ the King. In affirming this fundamental truth of our faith, Pope Pius was not referring simply to Catholic nations, or even to Christian nations, but to the whole of mankind. He cites from the encyclical, Annum Sacrum of Pope Leo XIII:
The empire of Christ the King includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Christ.
The separation of church and state was condemned unequivocally by the Roman Pontiffs until the Second Vatican Council. The Church's teaching is that the State has an obligation to render public worship to God in accord with the teachings of the True Church, the Catholic Church, and positively to aid the Catholic Church in the carrying out of her functions. The state does not have the right to remain neutral regarding religion, much less to pursue a secular approach in its policies.
No one claiming to be a Christian would, one hopes, dispute the fact that as individuals we must submit ourselves to the rule of Christ the King, but very few Christians, Catholics included, and conservative Catholics among them, understand, let alone uphold, the Social Kingship of Christ.
Strictly speaking, God alone has rights which belong to Him of His very nature. As human beings we possess only contingent rights, rights which are accorded to us by God. We have a right to do only what is pleasing to God. The fundamental meaning of the word, "liberty," is the ability to act without constraint. Again, citing from Pope Leo XIII:
The true liberty of human society does not consist in every man doing what he pleases, for this would simply end in turmoil and confusion, and bring on the overthrow of the State: but rather in this, that through the injunctions of the civil law all may easily conform to the prescriptions of the ETERNAL LAW.
Christ is the Ruler of the kings of the earth and He must Reign!
October 28, 2003 07:21 AM
UNTIL MANKIND SUBMITS TO THE KINGSHIP OF CHRIST, IT WILL REMAIN IN THE MORAL CHAOS THAT WE ARE IN TODAY.
"CHRIST BELIEVERS" HAVE REACHED THE END OF THE JOURNEY THAT BEGAN WITH PROTESTANT REVOLT, AS YOU CAN SEE THE END IS CHAOS AND ANARCHY. EVERY PERSON CALLING THEMSELVES "CHRISTIAN", NOW DECIDES THEIR OWN MORALITY, "CHRISTIANS" FOR ABORTION, FOR CONTRACEPTIVES, FOR HOMOSEXUALITY, FOR PRE-MARITAL SEX (FORNICATORS), DIVORCES (ADULTARY), NO FIDELITY TO SPOUSE, AND NO FIDELITY TO GOD.
JUST LIKE THE DEVIL THEY SAY BY THEIR ACTIONS/DEEDS; "I WILL NOT SERVE, I AM A GOD."
November 1, 2003 08:05 PM
Mel Gibson is my favorite actor and now that i found out he was a christian and making this film i was so amazed! As me and my family do mission work in Bolivia for the Lord it is awesome to see how others are doing his work also. Him making this film will be a great out reach to those who arent christians! I am giving all my support to this movie and i am praying it will be a success! If Mel Gibson reads this i want to tell him keep strong and God Bless! Your # 1 fan!
November 3, 2003 04:54 PM
Reply to Joel Comm,
YOU SAID: "As a dedicated Roman Catholic for over 30 years, the site's creator, Mike Gendron, speaks from an incredible depth of knowledge and authority about the Catholic church. He knows what it is like to be deceived and to come into the light."
MY RESPONSE: If this poor man had been a real Catholic, he would not have left the Church. I've studied his entire website and find it to be infantile. There is no depth in the matter covered, just his own opinion, based on a few misquoted Catholic lines and his ideas from scripture.
I’m afraid that if this poor man was ever a real Catholic, that he was a victim of the liberal revolution which has rocked the Catholic Church from Vatican II (1960's) till present. I would not doubt that he was a Eucharistic minister too. He had no direction and was left on his own.
Prior to Vatican II, Catholics didn't leave the Church to become a "protestant"; they just didn't practice the faith. In my experience, the one's that leave and become "protestant" (an individualists), do so because they wanted a divorce, and/or didn’t like to confess their sins to a priest, and/or wanted to use contraceptives, and/or didn't want any obligations (like having to go to mass every Sunday under pain of mortal sin). You see, “protestantism” requires nothing of the “believer”, NOTHING! You see in this “new and improved protestantism”, one need do nothing but “believe” in Christ. If they “believe” , they are already saved no matter what they do. THE ROAD JUST CAN’T GET ANY “BROADER” THAN THAT!
MY DELEMA has been; to where can I direct a non-Catholic to find real Catholic guidance in these confusing Catholic times? The subject is complicated, and who can you trust? Well, thanks to my writings on your website, one of your readers, has recently directed to AN EXCELLENT WEBSITE THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING CATHOLIC IN DEPTH. THE SIGHT IS http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/.
I WOULD ADVISE THE READERS OF YOUR “MEL GIBSON” WEBSITE TO COMPARE THIS SIGHT WHEN LOOKING FOR THE REAL CATHOLIC ANSWERS.
November 3, 2003 06:10 PM
Peter,
Certainly you are entitled to your opinion. I am sure you are sincere in your beliefs. In this case, I feel certain you are sincerely wrong. Not only do I find Mr. Gendron's site to have great depth, but his reasoning and logic are impeccable. He uses the church's own writings and the Holy Scriptures to come to obvious conclusions.
I would ask that you please cease posting in ALL CAPS. It looks like screaming.
Thanks!
Joel
November 4, 2003 04:40 PM
Reply to Joel,
You say: you find in the site great depth, impeccable reasoning and logic.
My Response; I don't see it. This is the same Mike Gendron that discredited himself by saying that the Catholic Church didn't exist till the 4th Century. If he has such a poor knowledge of elementary recorded history, how can he be trusted in more complicated matters?
You also say:
He uses the Church's own writings and the Holy Scriptures to come to obvious conclusions.
My response: A line from a catechism is not the Catholic religion. There are volumes written on each little line he uses even in the examples he gives on your website. I myself have a $6000 library on the Catholic Faith. The catechism from which Gendron only draws a little line, costs $2.00 used!
Not to make this too long, I'll only use to one example quoted by Mike Gendron on your website:
Gendron: the Catholic catechism says "Venial sins are not deserving of hell (1863)". Yet the Bible says all sin is mortal and deserving of hell (Rom. 6:23; James 2:10).
My Response: What is Mr. Gendron trying to prove here? Does he even know what venial sin is? In brief, a venial sin is a sin that will not send you to hell. If you teach your children the Santa Claus lie year after year, it is a lie. It is a venial sin, a small lie, not deserving of Hell. The "real" sin deserving of Hell is called a mortal sin. If you die with one unforgiven mortal sin you will go to Hell. Using contraception, divorce, provocative clothing, and lusting after women, are examples of common mortal sins of today. All who die without repenting of these sins, will go to Hell. That is Catholic theology in brief.
However, since Mr. Gendron believes that he is already saved by his "believing in Christ", why does he bring up this subject of sin? Is he saying that parents who teach the lie of Santa Claus are deserving of Hell?
It is the same with all the other simplistic personal opinions of Mr. Gendron. Like I said before:
All those Catholic quotes Gendron wrote are very brief, they don’t say much. There are Catholic libraries just on the subject of God’s Grace, and he is going to create his personal religion from one fragment, not even a sentence? What about all the other doctrines, there are thousands, since the Catholic Church answers all the questions of life? The Church has been there for 2000 years, everything is written. We know nothing about Gendron's teaching on more than a few ideas. His ideas are just that his only.
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AMDG
November 4, 2003 08:56 PM
Nonsense. His site has dozens and dozens of in depth articles tearing down the facade of the Catholic church thoroughly and completely. I believe he keeps his statements brief on this blog as he knows that a closed mind is a closed mind. There isn't much point in giving details to someone who isn't really interested in learning the truth.
November 5, 2003 10:40 AM
Reply to Joel,
I made two examples of Gendron errors on my last email. These are none truths. I repeat:
This is the same Mike Gendron that discredited himself by saying that the Catholic Church didn't exist till the 4th Century. If he has such a poor knowledge of elementary recorded history, how can he be trusted in more complicated matters?
November 5, 2003 11:01 AM
Who is your audience for these dozens and dozens of in-depth articles?
Do you guys pray in other tongues?
Have you been born again?
Do you operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
Do you attend Rodney Howard Brown
meetings in Tampa?
Are you involved with the Revival?
Have you drunk of the New Wine?
Have you ever heard Kim Clement sing
prophecy?
Do you read Charles Capp?
What about John Paul Jackson? Does
anyone pay any attention to his insights
on the prophetic word?
Who are your prophetically recognized,
tested and true gifted prophets?
Where are these dozens of in-depth
articles? I'd like to know the latest opinions.
We live in a broken world. Go ahead,
break it some more.
Wait until the arridity comes. Can you
handle it?
Michele
November 6, 2003 05:24 PM
You know Peter, I am continually amazed that you fascists still exist. There will never be a theocracy in this country.... people like me will make sure to that.
As for your mighty $6000 library, which clearly makes you a better Catholic than anyone, don't you find it a bit clumsy to keep shifting authority from the bible (which I assume is somewhere in the library) to the dioces? The dioces is made of men, obviously corruptable men.... yet you would rather have blind faith in such men than in the bible or the word. How can you ignore most of that huge document and extrapolate the words "Peter you are my rock" into what is practically a cult? (which is what the SSPX is)
People can think for themselves, and will decide the proper religion to be part of...... by your method they should listen to your hysterical threats or to militant priests who demand you do not think. ANY scam begins with this premise-"You have to do this, don't listen to the others".
As for your pathetic attempts at scholarly thought, I don't reacall the bible saying you need a degree to properly believe. Throwing around big words and phrases means nothing...... I've read quite a bit of what's out there and I don't think you undestand any of it.
So stay with what works for you, I suspect the bigotry fits better with your tendancy to hate....... but do consider- is there any logic in your beliefs?
November 6, 2003 05:30 PM
In Mike Gendron's article, "The Joy of
Witnessing to Catholics" there seems
to be an underlying anxiety that he must
teach others to convert Catholics. As if
he has a "thing" for them. And this
"thing" is just going to drive him nuts unless
he has a heavy hand in participating in it.
I smell an attachment. I mean a big one!
To harbor such an obsession is to
actually flirt with idolatry. If Jesus is
God and Redeemer, why can't
Mike Gendron just relax and let go and
let God?
I smell a controller. Or is that comptroller.
The Holy Spirit will not be controlled.
Not even by Mr. Gendron.
Did you ever pay back that $985 that
a young woman gave to send you with a
missions team to Acapulco?
You have money. Find that woman and give
it back. Show some class.
One article was enough. I felt like I needed
a pair of "thigh-high" boots to get out of
there.
I don't know what Mike did for 37 years
but he sounds trapped by his own desire and
and what smells like guilt for leaving the
Catholic Church.
It happens to the best of intentioned people.
Quite frankly, Mike Gendron, one could
well imagine you as mean-spirited and
spiritually vacant.
I can't think of anything flowing through
you except cement.
Michele
November 6, 2003 05:48 PM
For the record, I know Mike Gendron personally. I consider him to be one of the most gentle, honest, sincere, compassionate Christ-like men that has ever come into my life. Mike stands against the cultish institution of Catholicism which leads people away from Biblical Christianity into a forgery. While he has harsh words for the institution, I have never seen or heard him personally attack an individual as you just have done to him. By their fruits...
November 6, 2003 06:13 PM
Boy, is this conversation still about a movie or is it just a reason for pitting Christian against Christian(whether Catholic or not)? I think it's great that one has the freedom of expression, but all you kiddies should stop playing so rough...someone's gonna start cryin'! Remember that God is watching all of us. I've been reading all the posts and I must say, I think Michele Peruzzi's heartfelt conviction is really sexy...I'm turned on...I think I need a drink. Yours Truly Dj. Fuego
November 6, 2003 09:16 PM
Response to Raisin Lord,
I hope your name means Raising Lord, the opposite of raising hell, and not raisin the dried grape. No joke intended.
The definition of a fascist is: a system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with a belligerent nationalism.
The definition of theocracy is: government by a god regarded as the ruling power or by officials claiming divine sanction.
These two systems of government are opposed to each other. Either you call me a fascist or a theocrat. Yes, I'm a theocrat, Jesus Christ is my King, and until countries recognize Him as King of the world, they will continue going down the road of chaos. What I posted previously about the Catholic teaching on The Kingship of Christ, I posted because I thought it would be interesting for all "christians" to know. I had never heard of such a thing 7 years ago, and yet it was the way of Europe for over 1000 yrs.
Now, if you call me a fascist, either you were misinformed as to what a fascist is, or you may consider yourself 180 degree opposite of a fascist. Which would be a leftist/liberal, anti-business (an environmental extremist), and an anti-American (anti-nationalist, pro-one world government, United Nations loving type). Please kindly identify yourself. I ask this because the only people I ever hear use the word fascist to slander others are liberals/leftists/socialists/ communists etc.
Your blog comes across as hostile. I hope I'm not coming across as hostile here. I would never have answered your blog unless I thought it might help those reading this website.
As far as my $6000 library, if you read what I wrote, it was only meant to show the comparison between using only a $2 Catholic catechism versus the millions of books that cover each teaching of the Church. I do have many bibles, but there's a curious thing about the bible, and that is that everything we know about the bible came to us from other people. Your interpretations, actually did not come from you, they came from other people. Even the bible itself came from other people. If you have a Jehovah Witness bible, you have to trust that they gave you a true and correct translation, and that their interpretation which you take as your own, was correct. There is no way around it, even if you were born on a deserted island and were able to interpret the bible without any outside influence. In that case why would you believe this book that washed up?
The bottom line is that the Catholic trusts the Catholic Church, and all the others trust that the Catholic Church gave them a good bible and then they take it from there and trust anyone that agrees with their mode of living.
Regarding you calling the SSPX a cult-
There can be no Catholic cult. Either one is a Catholic or they are not. All the modern day "christian" cults call themselves Protestants. The mass suicidees of the Jonestown Massacre and the Branch Davidians, called themselves Protestants. This is the problem with "bible-only"; one can mold it as one pleases. This can't be done by a Catholic.
I'm surprised you brought up the subject of the SSPX. Are you a liberal Catholic?
Regarding your comment: "pathetic scholarly thought", I thank you for your "kind words".
Regarding what you call "my bigotry and tendency to hate"- Please kindly advise me where you read bigotry or hate in what I wrote. I'm not one to waste time. If I'm writing anything here, it is for the good of those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. Everything I have written here is Catholic teaching. Like I said on Sept 28th:
The Catholic Faith teaches that there are many religions, but the only true one is the Catholic Faith. The Catholic Church has been accused of being "authoritarian," "inflexible," dogmatic," It is all three, for the truth is "authoritarian," "inflexible," dogmatic." It was never, and never can be, changed to suit the whims of individuals; it can never be swayed by a majority vote.
I believe that you call anyone that is a rebuke to your lifestyle a bigot and hateful. That is the Catholic Church, a constant rebuke, to the lovers of this world.
I've only been at this (Catholicism) for 7 years, before that, I too was enamored of the world's diversions. I now reject all the sex, Hollywood, and the rock & roll bikini-clad girls party life. That $6000 in books was needed to catch up. Before, I urinated that much in beer per year.
Life is short, don’t take yourself and others so seriously. No one’s out to get you. This is a discussion group. Most of what I put here is cut and paste from others who communicate much better than I. You didn’t think I sat here for hours in front of my computer?
I think I’m going to have an ice cold Corona by the bay now.
Yours in Jesus Christ’
+
AMDG
November 7, 2003 10:27 AM
1) “BIBLE ONLY” CONTRADICTS ITSELF, BECAUSE IT IS NOT TAUGHTR IN SACRED SCRIPTURE.
The doctrine that the Bible alone is the only religious authority is not taught in the Bible. There is no book, chapter, or verse that demands book, chapter, and verse authority for every doctrine and practice. The Bibles never claims to be our only authority. The entire doctrine collapses because it contradicts itself.
You see, without the express command of the Bible to follow the Bible alone, “Bible only" becomes this monstrously illogical rule:
All religious truth must come from the Bible alone, except for the truth that all religious truth must come from the Bible alone!
2) "BIBLE ONLY" IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE LOGICAL FALLACY OF BEGGING THE QUESTION, INASMUCH AS SCRIPTURE NEVER IDENTIFIES WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT SCRIPTURE.
Your belief requires that every doctrine you hold be found in the pages of the Scriptures. However, the Scriptures fail to answer one all-important question: What is scripture?
The New Testament was originally 27 separate letters sent to separate people about various issues. You believe that those 27 letters, are the sole source of faith. This leads to a problem. There is no passage in any of the 27 letters which states:
"The following books, and only the following books, are Sacred Scripture: Matthew; Mark; Luke; John; Acts, I and II Romans; I and II Corinthians; Galatians; Ephesians; Philippians; Colossians; I and II Thessalonians; I and II Timothy; Titus; Philemon; Hebrews; James; I, II, and III John; Jude; and Apocalypse".
But, that's what you believe. So what's your authority? No matter what you say-"inner guidance of the Holy Spirit," "the testimony of the early Christians," "historical evidence," or even "the Catholic Church," etc.-you violate your own rule that all authority is in the Scriptures.
Few of the letters are even self-authenticating. Only the Apocalypse and, maybe, one or two of St. Paul's epistles claim to be inspired. To claim that any of the other books of the Bible is inspired forces you to violate your own rule. The Bible is silent, nonetheless you speak.
Many of the letters are anonymous. To call St. Matthew the author of Matthew or St. John the author of II John requires you to violate your rule again. The Bible never says that Matthew wrote Matthew or that John wrote John, that St. Mark wrote Mark, St. Luke wrote Luke and Acts, that St. John authored I, II, and III John, or that St. Paul composed Hebrews.
The only evidence that the traditional authors of the Gospels and Epistles mentioned in the preceding paragraph are Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul is Catholic Tradition. The only evidence that the 26 books of the New Testament are inspired, excluding the self-attesting Apocalypse, is the authoritative proclamation of the Catholic Church. You reject that authority, so with what do you replace it? The only evidence that - only the Old Testament and the 27 letters that are in our New Testament are inspired - is the authoritative proclamation of the Catholic Church. You reject that authority, so with what do you replace it?
You replace it with your own individualistic, convenient, broad road ideas. You will reach Heaven on your own terms.
When Jesus promised His apostles the Holy Spirit, He told them that they would preach the truth to all peoples. He never said anything to them about writing any scriptures! Jesus never alluded in any way, shape, or form, to the fact that His followers would be bound solely to a book which would later be produced.
I challenge anyone to provide a passage which tells us that we are limited to the New Testament. (By the way, you won't even find a passage that tells us there is a New Testament.)
November 7, 2003 06:35 PM
This unscriptural idea, that one is saved by faith only, is a creation of false shephards, it is used today as marketing ploy to get donations. It is an offering of an alternative easy road to salvation. It's proponents even go to the extent of saying you can live your life in sin and still you are saved, saved no matter what you do.
This is a creation of the devil, who goes about seeking who to devour. "Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour" (1Pet 5:8).
November 8, 2003 10:24 AM
Dear Peter and Michele,
I have been going over your posts, and find it difficult to know where to start. Although Mike Gendron and I don't agree on everything, I respect him as a brother in Christ and would advise you both to attend more carefully to what he has to say.
We know that early Church Fathers spoke of the Catholic (or universal) Church, but certainly had no thought of the modern Roman Catholic System of Religion. That did start in the 4th century, through the work of Constantine and Theodosius.
Whether one has access to a fabulous library or just goes down the street to but a Bible for $3, it is the Bible that is the source of truth. You can read about Catholicism in a library, but you learn about salvation in His Word.
I am wondering if each of you will share what happened to you when you first became a Christian. I was saved in Fort Bliss, Texas in April 1949.
Sincerely,
Bill Jackson
November 8, 2003 12:44 PM
Reply to Bill Jackson,
Constantine stopped the persecution of Christian and recognized the Christian religion. He's was an emperor of Rome. Look in any encyclopedia and you will see that the Roman Catholic Church and Christianity were one from the time of Christ. It is older than the NT bible.
Regarding, Your being "already saved"- itis un-scriptural and was not believed by anyone till Luther, 1500 years after Christ.
Merely believing that Christ died for you upon the Cross, and trusting to that for salvation, that is only a part of God's Revelation.
A man stands up in a meeting, and says he is " saved " because " God so loved the world as to give His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him may not perish but may have everlasting life," and " he that believeth in the Son hath everlasting life " (St. John iii. 16, 36 Or he buttonholes his neighbor at an Evangelistic meeting, and asks him, " Are you trusting in the Blood?" and "Have you decided for Christ ?" and if be gets an answer in the affirmative, he will say:" Hallelujah! You are on the Lord's side! You are saved !"
I know all this, because I have seen it and heard it. But that is not faith. It is a mere sentiment, a feeling, a persuasion, I am afraid more or less fanatical, concerning one single point of the Christian Revelation. It is narrowing faith down to one particular act in Our Lord's Redemption, and ignoring all the rest. From this description you would never imagine that Jesus Christ taught anything about the Church (he who will not hear the Church let him be a the publican and the sinner), or the Sacraments (he who is not baptized is condemned), or good works (keeping the ten commandments). It is therefore essentially and fundamentally a false notion of faith a delusion and a heresy.
Yours in Jesus Christ,
November 8, 2003 12:46 PM
Protestants are correct in saying we are saved by faith. This has been the constant teaching of the Catholic Church. But Protestants are wrong in saying we are saved by faith alone.
The Bible is extremely clear that faith and works are both necessary for salvation. It is hard to imagine how the Scriptures could say it more forcefully.
As a result, this was accepted by virtually all Christians—Catholics, schismatics, and even heretics—until the Protestant revolt in the 16th Century.
To the best of my knowledge, no one believed in salvation by faith alone until Martin Luther invented this doctrine. If you know of any group which subscribed to this notion prior to the Reformation, please let me know.
The evidence of history corresponds with the evidence of the Scriptures:
Matthew 7:21
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
COMMENT: This statement seems to aimed directly at Protestants, who Jesus knew would revolt against the Catholic Church in 1,500 years. Note that Jesus does not say that you enter the kingdom of heaven by accepting him as your Lord and personal savior. Rather, salvation is attained by faith plus doing the will of the Father.
Matthew 25:31
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: [43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
COMMENT: Jesus is very specific about what must be done to obtain salvation. Faith alone is not enough. We must engage in acts of charity. Failure to do so will result in "everlasting punishment."
Matthew 19:16
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
COMMENT: Note that Jesus does not say we enter eternal life by accepting him as Lord and personal savior. Rather, we must "keep the commandments." Faith alone will not result in eternal life. We must avoid sin.
Matthew 18:5
[5] And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. [6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
COMMENT: Unrepentant sins will have serious consequences. Eternal salvation requires a lot more than faith alone.
1 Timothy 5:8
[8] But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
COMMENT: Scripture makes the point over and over that if a person does certain wrongs, for which there is no genuine sorrow, he or she will go to hell. Actions count in determining our eternal destiny.
Matthew 18:32
[32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: [33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee? [34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. [35] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
COMMENT: Once again, Jesus makes it clear that actions matter, not just faith alone. This continues the message in the Lord’s Prayer, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others," meaning we will not be forgiven unless we do what Jesus tells us to do.
James 2:14
[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
COMMENT: For those who believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, this closes the case. What more needs to be said?
Romans 2:6
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds: [7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: [8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, [9] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
COMMENT: Salvation by faith alone? Not at all.
Galatians 6:7
[7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. [8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [9] And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. [10] As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
COMMENT: Three powerful messages are contained here. First, God is highly displeased with those who mock Him by making statements of faith but continue to commit unrepentant sin. Second, we will reap heaven or hell depending on what we do or fail to do. Third, salvation is a life-long process. If we must grow "weary in well doing" or "faint," we will not make it to heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:9
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
COMMENT: All of the sins mentioned above can be forgiven if a person is truly sorry for having commited them because he or she has offended God. But if a person is not truly sorry for a sin, he or she will not "inherit the kingdom of God," even if they thought they were "saved" in a Protestant church.
Galatians 5:19
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
COMMENT: Accepting Jesus as your Lord and personal savior is good. But if mortal sin follows, for which a person does not have perfect contrition, he or she "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Faith alone will not suffice.
Hebrews 10:26
[26] For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
COMMENT: This totally contradicts the Protestant theory that future sins don’t matter, since "once saved, always saved." Salvation is definitely not secured through faith alone. Our continual actions—avoiding sin and doing good works—are absolutely necessary along with faith.
1 Corinthians 9:27
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
COMMENT: Clearly, St. Paul did not think he was "saved" as R. C. Sproul and other Protestants do.
Philippians 2:12
[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
COMMENT: Christians can never have "true assurance of salvation" because we must continue to the end of our lives to avoid sins of omission and commission. Salvation consists of a whole lot more than making an act of faith.
2 Corinthians 5:10
[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
COMMENT: Salvation definitely depends on what we have done, not just faith alone.
Romans 11: 22
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
COMMENT: St. Paul wrote this to Christians. We continue in his goodness through avoiding sin and doing good works. Note that you can become "unsaved." Salvation is absolutely a life-long struggle.
Romans 5:2
[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 8:24
[24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
COMMENT: St. Paul makes it clear that, through following God’s commandments, we hope to get to heaven. But we could still not make it. We do not have assurance of salvation.
Matthew 10:22
[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
COMMENT: Once saved, always saved? Not according to Jesus.
Revelation 22:12
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
COMMENT: Very close to the last words of the Bible.
November 8, 2003 03:56 PM
Peter, you are sincere. But I believe you have misinterpreted every scripture you have listed, coming to wrong conclusions based on wrong assumptions and unbiblical thinking. I disagree with each and every comment you have made. However, as a brother recently pointed out to me, there is no "convincing" those who have set their hearts against truth. It is a work of God's Spirit to do so in your heart. Therefore, I will leave you in His quite capable hands. :-)
Blessings,
Joel
November 8, 2003 04:24 PM
How can chuch groups reserve theater's for private showings?
The Case for Christ is a book I just read that addresses every doubt raised earlier in this list serve.
It is an exhaustive explanation for the historical, archeological, and evidentiary support that Jesus as the resurected Messiah. Written by an Yale Law School atheist, who used his skills as a crime reporter for the Chicago Tribune to prove that the story of Jesus as Christ was a legend. After his 21 month journey, Mr. Strobel concluded that the evidence demanded his devotion as a follower of Jesus Christ.
Through Christ in Love,
Miss Mary
November 8, 2003 06:29 PM
Reply to Joel,
Like everything I've written here, all the biblical quotes above are from the interpretations of the early Church Fathers. The comments are what the Church has always believd. In other words, they are not "what I think" as your comments are. Your opinion is your own.
Mine is what has always been believed since before Luther invented this "faith only", disregard the entire bible, "you are saved", new and improved wide road religion!
Once again. I challenge anyone to quote me one line from anyone before Luther who taught that "one is saved by believing in Christ, and it does not matter how sinful a life they lead".
What could be clearer than the entire 2nd Chapter of James? And it ends with as clear a language as there is in scripture "[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only".
November 10, 2003 07:54 AM
"Works" and "Deeds" are used to mean the same thing in scripture. The primary part of works/deeds is the Ten Commandements.
Anyone with eyes to see, will see that Luthers invented "you are saved by faith only, no matter how much you sin"- says disregard the Ten Commandments. That is un-scriptural as will be testified by the Old Testament Jews and the New Testamnet Jesus Christ, God.
November 11, 2003 06:35 PM
All you finger pointing, bible thumping, fenceline Christians have really sickened me to the point of puking!! Does anybody see how the Jewish can become a formidable threat to Christian expression? If you can't, you are more lost than I thought. The Jewish adhere to a unifying belief,(except the few who have praised the film) and that is what makes them so powerful... they stand together. The Christian responses on this site only show me(and non-Christians) what a joke the Christian faith is.
You people can't even come to a universal form of belief over a movie! Part(or most) of forgiveness is "LIVE AND LET LIVE", not "I'm right and you're wrong". All of you sound like a bunch of scamps in a sewing circle, bickering about what stitch is the universally correct stitch to mend the tear.(not you M.P.) GET OVER YOURSELVES and try feeling the spirit in any thing good or bad. You can form your own opinions without having to point fingers at the other's faults. The fact is, there is more than one type of stitch to mend the tear, as there is more than one way into Heaven through Jesus Christ.
People start quoting the Bible and follow the symbolic issues as if they were ment to be checked off like a grocery list, instead of following Jesus' example... To conquer death, you only have to die!! Accept the fact that if you are Catholic or Protestant, and your faith and sincerity is true, you have a guaranteed place in Heaven... just don't spend so much time trying to sway the others' minor differences in the belief of the one and only Jesus Christ. Just remember that nobody attains perfection until you're dead and resurrected! Thanx.
November 11, 2003 08:57 PM
Reply to DJ Fuego,
You say: The Jewish adhere to a unifying belief,(except the few who have praised the film) and that is what makes them so powerful... they stand together.
If you are talking about a unified Jewish front against the film The Passion - What do I care what anyone thinks about the film? If God wants the film, if we are deserving of having the film, no one will stop it. Theres more Mexicans in LA than the world has Jews. They don't have atom bombs aimed at us, so why so much fanfare?
The only thing I'm scared about is my mother, and she passed away 2 years ago. So bring on the big scare!
If you are saying that the Jewish religion is united, then go become a jew and you'll find out they are all over the place just like the Protestants, Moslems, Hindus and all the worlds religions.
The only religion that's united in doctrine, morals, and government is the Catholic Church.
Posiblemente porque vienes de un pais con historia Catolica tu piensas que las otras religiones son inidas igual que la Iglesia Catolica, ninguna religion tiene union, menos la Iglesia Catolica.
Si no entiendes espanol para que usar un nombre latino como Fuego.
+
AMDG
November 12, 2003 09:13 AM
DJ... your insights are compelling.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
You need to "throw more fire" at everybody.
Just everybody.
Are there any film buffs out there?
I heard that the title of Mel Gibson's film is
being changed. Still no word as to what.
I think he could release 2 versions. So people
can choose. One with subtitles. One without.
That way you could experience what he
initially intended. The other version, for those
who feel like reading.
"For every rip, there's an unsown seam."
MicheleP
November 12, 2003 09:29 AM
While I appreciate DJ's passion (pun intended), his reaction is immature and nothing but ecumenism. Just because his "all roads lead to heaven" speech may make you feel good does not mean his words are credible in any sense of the matter. I am far more interested in following what God says than in the religious beliefs of a self-fashioned prophet such as DJ. If he could channel his passion into a reliable belief system, perhaps he would have something to say. As it is, he is just another person ranting with absolutely nothing substantial to back up his so-called beliefs.
November 12, 2003 11:43 AM
No one said they felt good. His words are
compelling because they point out the
futile agendas of the chosen few.
Do you have anything to say about film?
Why don't we get back to a creative topic?
It's a much kinder discipline. Religion doesn't
float very well with anyone these days. Films can be uplifting and inspiring and instructive.
For the folks who read and run, please
put in your opinions and knowledge.
It broadens the discussions. You don't
have to be a genious. I'd like to hear other
people from around the world. Where are
you? Post a word or two.
Michele
November 13, 2003 07:15 PM
Reply to Orestes,
Yo si intiendo espanol, y yo uso el nombre como me de la gana!...and if the Catholic church is so unified, why is there a Vatican II?
Reply to Joel,
It's your blindness that makes you miss all the roads that lead to heaven... and the only "self-fashioned prophets" I see, are in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints... as for you, you sound like a Baptist.
Reply to Michele Peruzzi,
The movie is called "The Passion of Christ"(2-25-04) Thanks for keeping it down to earth and realistic.....All this over a flick?
November 13, 2003 09:21 PM
DJ Fuego,
Te estaba probado, pues pensabe que eras un pendejo tratando de pasarse de latino.
What do you mean by Vatican II? Please elaborate?
November 13, 2003 09:23 PM
In other words, what's vatican II got to do with dis-unity?
November 14, 2003 09:39 PM
Is Your Church a Biblical Church?
Take this simple test to see if your church is truly a biblical church!
(1) "And they shall bring all your brethren out of all nations for a gift to the Lord, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and on mules, and in coaches, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as if the children of Israel should bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. And I will take of them to be priests, and Levites,
saith the Lord." (Isaias 66:20-21)
The Old Testament prophesies that in the New Covenant, there will be a ministerial priesthood. Does your church have a ministerial priesthood?
(2) "And in those days cometh John the Baptist preaching in the desert of Judea. And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (St. Matthew 3:1-2)
The bible describes the Church as a kingdom, a monarchy. Does your church resemble a monarchy? A democracy? Anarchy?
(3) "For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." (Malachias 1:11)
The Old Testament prophesies that in the New Covenant, a "clean" (pure) oblation and sacrifice will be offered up from East to West. Does your church offer up a spotless sacrifice and oblation when it meets?
(4) "And when thy days shall be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will raise up thy seed after thee... He shall build a house to my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom fore ever." (2 Kings [2 Samuel] 7:12-13)
"And my servant David shall be king over them, and they shall have one shepherd." (Ezechiel 37:24)
"Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus... And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father." (St. Luke 1:31-32)
"But you are come to mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels." (Hebrews 12:22)
The Bible teaches that Jesus came to restore the Davidic Kingdom, and to elevate it to a heavenly plane. Does your church manifest this restoration of the Davidic Kingdom?
(5) "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliacim the son of Helcias, and I will clothe him with thy robe, and will strengthen him with thy girdle, and will give thy power into his hand: and he shall be as a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Juda. And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open." (Isaias 22:20-22)
The Bible teaches that the Davidic Kingdom which Jesus restored includes a Prime Minister, one who holds "the key of the house of David," who is given "power," who is "as a father" to the citizens of the kingdom. Does your church acknowledge such a Prime Minister, and the authority of the keys?
(6) "And Jesus said to them: Amen I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (St. Matthew 19:28)
The Bible teaches that this restored Davidic Kingdom has princes that rule over the kingdom. Does your church acknowledge these princes?
(7) "Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand.
And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee; do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother ask, for I must not turn away thy face." (3 Kings [1 Kings] 2:19-20)
"And Roboam, the son of Solomon, reigned in Juda... And his mother's name was Naama, an Ammonitess." (3 Kings [1 Kings] 14:21)
"Now in the eighteenth year of the reign of Jeroboam, the son of Nabat, Abiam reigned over Juda... the name of his mother was Maacha, the daughter of Abessalom." (3 Kings [1 Kings] 15:1-2)
"So in the twentieth year of Jeroboam, king of Israel, reigned Asa, king of Juda... His mother's name was Maacha, the daughter of Abessalom." (3 Kings [1 Kings] 15:9-10)
The Bible teaches that the Davidic Kingdom includes the office of the Queen Mother. Does your church
acknowledge the Queenship of the Mother of the King?
(8) "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15)
The Bible teaches that the Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth." Does your church teach this elevated authority of herself?
(9) "Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:14)
The Bible teaches that apostolic tradition is to be held to, whether it comes by "epistle," or by "word." Does your church hold to both written as well as oral traditions?
(10) "And Mary said... for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." (St. Luke 1:46, 48)
The Bible teaches that all generations will call Mary "blessed." Does your church encourage you to bless the Mother of God?
November 15, 2003 06:06 PM
To Orestes,
The Vatican II is a major portion of the Catholic church that branched away from the idea that the Jews were "Christ-killers"(and other reasons, I'm sure)...also very much a Biblical church. From your views, every thing you've said is correct...it doesn't mean one would take them as universally correct unless they attended the sermons of the same belief. You see, any Christian can quote scripture...HECK!, even Satan can quote scripture, but it doesn't mean his interpretation would be accepted unless one was a Satanist. Don't quote scriptures...live by them, and if you truly believed in what you quoted...you wouldn't feel compelled to test anyone, least of all me. Understand that I am of Protestant upbringing (also Biblical) and I have no need for offering up a "spotless" sacrifice, seeing as how the spotless sacrifice has already been made(on Golgotha). The only thing I can offer, is my thoroughly spotted self. (I won't be spotless until I die and Resurrect, in which time you would be too.)
I never said Mary wasn't blessed, I just don't pray to her...and by the way, the last time I heard "Queen Mother" was in the U.K...did you know she has an office too?
I didn't bring my Bible to work but if I did,I'm sure I could post a comment just as long (which I'm positive all your quotes didn't come from memory in the first place).
Anticipating the film has nothing to do with how one interprets the scriptures, it has everything to do with the appriciation of the magnitude of Jesus' sacrifice. Make no mistake, I think your reply comes from great intelligence and wisdom...please don't turn it into a reason to attack or test others, as the views would no doubt differ from Catholic to Protestant.
Yours in Christ
November 20, 2003 02:13 AM
"Again the high priest asked Him and said to Him, 'Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?' Then Jesus answered, 'I AM;
and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" (Mark 14:61-62)
Jesus I love You, stay with me always, make me just like You!
All glory to God! May all believers return to the Church, defender of truth. May God bless this film and servant Mel Gibson and may this work of art inspire believers and nonbelievers alike to convert their ways back to GOD the ALMIGHTY!
Jesus I love You, stay with me always, make me just like You.
Christians unite! Stop bickering, know there (are and) will be false prophets, and we must live in the Light so that all nations and all people will know GOD; THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Jesus I love You, stay with me always, make me just like You.
November 26, 2003 11:40 AM
"And God indeed having winked at the times
of this ignorance, now declareth unto men
that all should every where do penance."
—Acts 17:30
Douay-Rheims Bible
Think deeply and carry a big shovel.
Reform is in,
Michele Peruzzi
November 26, 2003 09:40 PM
En estos tiempos la gente tiende a creer que Jesus mno vino al mundo y si vino solo era un profeta, nada podría estar mas lejos de la realidad.
Por otra parte los que creen en Jesucristo se hacen a la idea de un Jesus bonito con dos ilitos de sangre por su frente, otra vez, nada mas lejos de la realidad.
Deseo y quiero que Dios bendiga a los productores de esta película por el realismo que se ve que va a tener.
Jesuscristo en completa obediencia y amor se sacrificó a si mismo por nosotros y no fue un simple y sencillo sacrificio, Dios padre lo hizo pór nosotros, ¿Cuantos de nosotros daríamos a nuestros hijos para que mueran no solo por los buenos sino tambien por los malos?
Sigan adelante Dios los bendiga
Confianza en Dios para que los proteja del enemigo y la resistencia a esta película,
a Mantenermos firmes hasta la muerte o hasta la segunda venida de Jesus en Gloria
¿Como va estar la cara de los que hoy se opnen o se burlan cuando esto pase?
Muy bien Sr. Gibson Dios lo bendiga, sigan luchando
December 3, 2003 10:31 AM
I am also a huge fan of Mel Gibson's work. I do not believe him to be anti-semetic, but you can not expect this film to be criticized by Jews or those who sympathize with them for the persecution that they have received. People who have no understanding of religious persecution will use anything, even a film, to support their argument. Fanatics will use this to further discriminate Jews.
Nonetheless, as a lover of film, I am excited to see Passion. I just hope that people who view the film, view it will a level of understanding towards all people that may be offended.
December 4, 2003 10:15 AM
Response to Ronald,
Yo creo que la contesta de usted fue muy amable y hermosa, Dios bendiga al Sr. Gibson y sigue luchando porque yo tambien estoy esperando la pelicula.
Response to Jose,
I couldn't agree with you more! I hope Chicago has some showings local enough for me to see the film with minimal effort but, whether or not its local, I do still intend to see it! I haven't seen a good tear jerker in a long time...I hope this one does it for me.
December 9, 2003 11:05 PM
It has been about a week since I saw the trailer. I've started to do the rosary again, Thank God. And I feel much better than what I felt a week ago. However, today as I was driving from work and I was putting images on my mind as to the physical and emotional suffering that Christ endured in his last moments, I had to slow down the vehicle I was driving and I was crying like if I betrayed someone so special. My heart was hurting. People were looking at me and they were staring at my crying eyes. It was five years since my last confession. I did that this last Saturday. And I felt a little relief. But what happened today was just incredible. I am a sinner. But I firmly belief that Mel Gibson was guided by the Holy Spirit on this film. If not then explain why a man like me who is a sinner, only watched 4 minutes of a trailer can feel remorse and with a heart broken, truly asks forgiveness to Jesus and makes attempts to fix his life so one day he can be with Christ. This is what the film is for. So that everyone confess their sins to Christ and move on, only with him. Does not matter if you are Catholic, Baptist, or Orthodox Jew. I see everyone quoting here and there. And is good to see that everyone knows the scriptures. But everyone is missing the point. All religions, creeds and prayers lead only to one man. CHRIST. Everyone will accept this movie in their own way. But one things is for sure. Everyone will accept CHRIST. If I offended anyone with this few words, forgive me. But I say again, all roads lead to Christ. God Bless the World and May God bless Mr. Gibson and his family.
December 10, 2003 11:03 AM
Well put, mvegausmc.
People will meet Jesus at life's end.
He decides what happens next.
I think this film will cause "many" to repent
and embrace the good news. If some people
have a negative reaction, it remains to be
seen what they will embrace.
So many things have gone badly in the world
that Mr. Gibson must have felt the deepest
conviction within to submit his "gifts" as an
artist, including his own abundance, to
finance the project.
Repentance starts at Calvary. One cannot bypass that reality and just head for the
open tomb. No sorrow, no glory.
I can identify with what you say, mvegausmc.
It's never too early to be washed in the
blood of the Lamb. I went to Confession on
Saturday, too. It helped me to examine my
conscience once more. To pick up and start
anew with Christ at my side, ever guiding me
and blessing those areas of my life and mind
that require reform. By the way, sometimes
the feelings don't always come in a heightened manner. It's the conviction that
counts. The decision to turn to Christ and head yourself in the the direction of his light.
It's the grace available in Confession that
I'm interested in...not so much the feeling.
I'm warmed by your experience, and I'm
glad to know you're back. That was a powerful
witness of the Holy Spirit at work.
All of that from the trailer of The Passion of
Christ.
Michele
December 11, 2003 12:28 PM
I just learned that there is an (888) number I can call to buy tickets in advance(which I understand will also help the film's PR). My husband and I plan to see the movie with another couple as soon as it comes out. I am encouraging many others to see the film as well. GOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU STRONG MEL GIBSON!
December 11, 2003 07:08 PM
Who on earth has Mel Gibson's vitality and courage !?? I'm sure that Mel Gibson's film "The Passion" would become an enduring piece of ART, and basically Mel Gibson HIMSELF would become and enduring influence as well as an example of integrity for his courageous battle against an exhausting, ridiculous and parasitic rival-mass,trying to afflict him,to slap and to defeat him....accordingly only to their own narrow-minded standards....We all know that every great innovator is intuitively hated,denounced and snatched around...Mel Gibson is a man of absolute principles, engaged in a fierce freedom fight for absolute creation, somehow swimming against the curent, but ultimately true to himself.... How many of us have that COURAGE??
Well,we surely cannot force people to respect what they don't understand.!!!!!!!!
I hereby would you like to lay my hat on Mr. Mel Gibson ...the world is in GREAT NEED of men of your caliber.
Cheers. Luis F**
December 14, 2003 09:34 PM
Several years ago I watched in heart wrenching sadness the heroism and sacrifice of the United States military landing on the bloody beach of Omaha. Steven Speilberg had given the world a close up view and a very raw taste of combat from a theater seat and its repercussions stirred my soul. I remember the pride in my country when the last ruffle of the American flag slowly dropped across the screen. I quickly focused my thoughts on what a major and powerful production along the lines of a "Saving Private Ryan" could have yet this time a movie revealing the TRUE passion of Christ Jesus. Take us back to Jerusalem, let us sit with Jesus during the last supper, and let us ultimately prepare ourselves to go headlong into the brutality of the scourging and horrific pain of crucifixtion. My passion for Jesus continues and I labor to perform something of worth before leaving this planet. I yearn to magnify His glory through Him yet I remain absorbed in self and as a result unworthy to even write these comments. May the peace of Christ Jesus be with us. May Mel Gibson's production of "The Passion of the Christ" take hold and anchor our hearts..forever.. for it is only when our hearts are true that we realize finally that it is not about us. Jesus, thank you for loving us! Lord have mercy on us!
December 14, 2003 10:58 PM
I admire Mr. Gibson's effort in making this movie about our lord Jesus,his actions will definetly spark others to step forward and show their courage in making a difference in the world and honoring our lord. I have been inspired myself to invest some of my own funds to hire the servises of a professional script writer to write a script about a time in 4th century A.D. about an Armenian General named Vartan who fought against the great Persian Empire. Persian Empire was forcing the Armenians who accepted Christianinty in 301 A.D. to denounce their faith and convert back to Zoarastrianism their old faith for their own political gain. However the leaders of the Armenians at that time dediced to defend their faith and fight against the Persians at all cost. It is a true story its been in my mind for the past 2 years to do this, and I even have found the support of some friend in the Movie making industry to participate. Hopefully when the script is finished I would pray Mr. Gibson's advise in this project. Going back to my comments about the Movies Passion, I am very excited to see this Movie, and I am sure it will be a GREAT movie, and hope millions of people would come to know and follow the Lord by watching this Movie. and by the way I am very much offended that many Movies made in hollywood use the Lords name and use profane language afterward, I am surprised no one has done anything against such offensive conduct. I am also concerned as to why they use profane langauage after using our Lords name, and never use any profane language after any other religious figure like Moses, or Mohamad I am not at all suggesting in any way they should, I am just saying the many of the Movie industries film makers offend the Christians. and this should come to an end. God bless Mr. Gibson and all the people who are working to make this movie. I sincerely wish you all great success. May the Lord guide you and keep you.
Sincerely,
Armen Simonian
December 16, 2003 05:02 PM
Regarding using profane language after our Lords name. People constantly say "Jesus Christ!" as if they were saying "shit!" or "damn it!". that is taking the Lords name in vain, since He is God. They also say "God damn it!", or just Oh my God!", which are both taking the Lords name in vain. We should all be awarw that this comes from the social engineers who are using the media to brain wash us (social engineering= brain washing=mind control). Hollywood isjust a medium for social engineering.
Whenever you here someone take the Lords name in vain, you should make them aware of what they just did, and how they are programmed to make all these expressions. "Radical', "dude", don't dis me", "Oh my God", etc etc ALL the words of brainwashed jombies.
December 16, 2003 05:26 PM
Peter,
Those comments are totally out of the blue. Language changes to reflect the culture and the times. I don't think you can grant the power of
"brainwashing" to Hollywood just because people use words such as "dude" and "radical". This is a very extreme view and it dilutes the point of your message.
Hollywood is NOT just a medium for social engineering. Movies can be engaging, thought-provoking, life-affirming, faith-affirming and even life-changing. I would have to say that our public school system is the more culpable source of "brainwashing" as far as the youth go.
Should we make people aware that they use the Lord's name in vain? I suppose if you need to. I am more concerned with their heart than judging their tongue. Loving them in spite of their faults will draw them closer to the Lord than pointing out their shortcomings, in my opinion.
Joel
P.S. - you should really proof your text when you post comments. I counted no less than four grammatical and spelling errors.
December 16, 2003 08:35 PM
I noticed errors too late. Here's corrected version:
Regarding using profane language after our Lords name. People constantly say "Jesus Christ!" as if they were saying "shit!" or "damn it!", that is taking the Lords name in vain, since He is God. They also say "God damn it!", or just Oh my God!", which are both taking the Lords name in vain. We should all be aware that this comes from the social engineers who are using the media to brain wash us (social engineering= brain washing=mind control). Hollywood is just one medium for social engineering.
Whenever you hear someone take the Lords name in vain, you should make them aware of what they just did, and how they are programmed to make all these expressions. "Radical', "dude", don't dis me", "Oh my God", etc, ALL the words of brainwashed zombies.
December 16, 2003 09:28 PM
Joel,
It looks like I hit a nerve with my criticism of Hollywood!
By Hollywood, I mean TV, movies, and music industry, and I can very much grant to this "Hollywood", the power of brainwashing.
"Dude", "radical", and Britney Spears belly button are all signs of the speed of communicating programmed social change. How else could these expressions and fashions travel so fast, but through Hollywood? One sign of this societal brainwashing, whether you see it or not, are the young women of this country that are being taken towards being boy toys. The foundation of civilization is the women/mother, once she is gone, all will quickly crumble.
You think that the school system is a greater corrupter than Hollywood? The public school system teaches science, math, reading, writing etc., there's not much brainwashing that can be done in those subjects. Ok maybe in the social sciences but that's a small part of schooling. More social engineering is done by what the students bring to school from their homes. That's why parents want schools with people like themselves, so at least they can control the outside influences in that respect.
Hollywood might still make some inspiring movies, however, today that would be a small percentage of what it produces. I doubt if 5% is in this category. Then again, I’d rather "live it" than to sit in a couch and watch someone else do it. I'd rather be living my own movie, out in the world living life.
December 16, 2003 09:36 PM
+SEMPER FIDELIS+Psalm 91+
A Mother's 'Always Faithful' Prayers
By Jim Baxter Sgt. USMC
World War II and Korea
My brother and I joined the U.S. Marine Corps
right out of high school and went away to World
War II. Our mother, a True Believer, wrapped us
in Psalm 91 and claimed God's promises over us.
He went to the Paramarine/Raiders and the 5th
MarDiv and I to the OSS and the 2nd MarDiv. We
both went through combat and returned home safely
after the war.
In 1950, with the outbreak of the Korean War, we
were both recalled to active duty with the 1st
Marine Division. Our mother again wrapped us in
Psalm 91, gave each of us a small New Testament,
and again sent us off to war with the Lord's
blessing.
As a 12-year-old, I had accepted the Lord but had
never been well disciplined or obedient. I wanted
to play patty-cake in the sand piles of the world.
At 25, when I went to Korea, I started reading the
little New Testament my mother had given me.
At the Inchon landing, and for the next two weeks
of heavy combat as a rifle-squad leader, I read a
few Bible verses every day. I loved my brother
Marines who suffered and died alongside me. As the
death and destruction grew more intense - and as I
stood on the brink of eternity - I did not like
what I saw.
As my outfit, Fox Company [F-2-1], attacked up the
streets of Seoul, I was hit with a machine-gun
bullet. I made it behind a burning police sub-
station in the middle of the street. My corpsman,
Chico, dressed my wounds and as sniper bullets
crashed into the street beside us, he laid on top
of me - covering me with his own body - and yelled
in my ear, "You've had enough!" Other riflemen
nailed the snipers and as Chico left me to help
other Marines lying wounded in the street, he was
hit by two bullets that blew the shinbone out of
his leg. I never saw Chico again.
Several Marines threw a wooden door on the ground,
rolled me on it and ran me down the street under
heavy fire. It was a fearsome ride. I was placed on
a DUKW, given a shot of morphine, and dreamed a
beautiful restful sleep to Kimpo airfield and the
flight to Japan.
At Yokosuka Naval Hospital for three months, I
proclaimed my loyalty to Chico, my corpsman. One
night, the Lord came to me. I saw the blood running
down His forehead, into His eyes, and down over His
cheeks. I looked into His blood-filled eyes. He
spread out His bloody hands and said, "I did this
for you."
I was willing to be loyal to Chico - but had not
been willing to be loyal to the Lord.The Lord said,
"Come and follow me. I will make you a man. Put
away childish things." I knew what he meant.I said,
"Yes Sir."
With the Lord as the Lord of my life, I re-joined
my outfit and went back into front-line combat for
another five months before returning home.My
brother came home with frostbitten feet and I came
home with a tender rear-end. Our mother cried with
joy unspeakable.We were both baptized and have been
His loyal Marines ever since. Everyday we say, "Yes
Sir," to the Lord Jesus - our CHAMPION and HERO.
My Lord and my God.
Winston Churchill once said, "Courage is the most
important virtue because it makes all other virtues
possible." As a senior in high school ready to join
the Marine Corps, I thought his statement was good.
The sequence sounded right.
As a 26-year old veteran of front-line combat in
two wars, I came to understand that Churchill was
not accurate. Courage is not the prime virtue.It is
faithfulness/loyalty/commitment that is the prime
virtue. It is being faithful that makes all other
virtues possible, including courage. The Corps has
it right: semper fidelis. Always Faithful
"Moreover, it is required of stewards that a man be
found faithful." I Corinthians 4:2
Thank you, Mel Gibson. JFB
December 16, 2003 09:49 PM
Joel,
Regarding your comment "that you are more concerned with their heart than judging their tongue".
MY RESPONSE:
We can't judge peoples "hearts", that's an internal matter only known to God. This is what is meant by the saying that you can't judge others. It says we can't judge the internals of others.
If someone expresses their internals, then we are no longer judging the unknown, for they have just told it to us. That is not judging. If you tell me that you are a Satanist, then I would not be judgmental in telling others that you are evil.
You can't "look" into peoples "hearts". You can only judge them by their actions/lives/works/deeds/fruits.
It is no difficult matter to educate someone in the ways of their errors. Christians were fed to the lions for standing up for the Faith. The least we today could do is to correct someone when they use the Lords name in vain.
December 16, 2003 10:43 PM
1) Mass media has always both reflected and become a reflection of our society. As if we even need the media to become sinful. Sodom and Gomorrah got along fine without "Hollywood" to influence them, if you get my point. And I do contend that the public school system is way to "values" oriented and not enough of the three "R's".
2) I NEVER said anything about judging the hearts of those who take the Lord's name in vain. I said that it would not SERVE that person to point it out. The world needs fewer Holy Rollers majoring on the minors and more people concerned with people's true needs, not ones who are eager to point out their sin. You don't win souls this way.
Joel
December 19, 2003 11:24 AM
It's hard to gain people's trust. They don't want to be told by a stranger that they are doing
something that is offensive to God. It's
strange territory. What you might run up
against is a barrier to the truth instead.
I've seen it more and more in our society
today. People do and say whatever they want
to and don't expect to be corrected. It's a
personal boundary issue, and your boundary
doesn't concern them. It's callous for sure.
People should pray for wisdom in those
situations. If the Holy Ghost is moving in that
person's life, then I would think that He
would tell you what to do and how to do it,
including the choice to bear the situation
in silence and patience. Winning souls to
Christ is a tender thing. Remorse is a
quality that comes from encountering Christ.
And conversion is a gift of the Holy Ghost.
At least He is the agent of conversion.
In this respect, Joel, I think you're right.
This movie of Christ's passion is so important
because of the chance to show what Jesus
was doing and what He was up against and
what He had to do to win for us our salvation.
If nonbelievers see the whole package, as
well as us, of course, it could provide that
moment of reflection to examine their life
and come to know Jesus as their savior.
This film wasn't done through the regular
channels of Hollywood. They're probably
still reeling over not having any control over it.
Sincerely,
Michele P.
December 19, 2003 11:13 PM
It is my first time to see this blog and scanning through all the entries, all I could say is that we continue to scourge Jesus by our words and actions. I just saw the movie by Mel Gibson. Here is a short note that I sent to a Catholic website, my friends and families:
I was very fortunate to be one of the few ones that have seen the unedited version of Mel Gibson’s movie “The Passion of The Christ” here in Honolulu. This by-invitation-only screening was done yesterday, Dec. 18, and was initiated by a Protestant Christian church here in the islands in collaboration with a Catholic Christian evangelization apostolate. As a coordinator of the youth ministry in our parish, I will definitely make it a field trip project for our youth group and invite as many youths as I can get. I will also encourage their families and other parishioners to see this movie. It is very powerful. You do not watch it; you experience it. If you love Christ, it will move you to tears; you will feel His Passion and you will follow Him closely. If you do not know Christ, it will also move you and make you wonder, who is this Jesus? You will be changed. It is based on the Gospels and I am very sad that critics (who have not seen the movie yet) made judgments against this movie. Like Jesus, we say "Forgive them for they don't know what they do" or say. The artistic presentation of Mel Gibson is amazing and powerful. However, it is not suitable for younger children as the scourging, the beatings, the crucifixion are graphically depicted as excessive and brutal. But again, it is based on the gospels and that’s how it was in the gospels. Pope John Paul II who asked for a private screening gave these 5 words after seeing the movie - "It is as it was." We are hoping that there will be a faith revival in the islands especially as we contemplate on the passion and sufferings of Jesus during the Lenten season. The movie premieres on Ash Wednesday, February 25, 2004.
January 4, 2004 10:42 AM
go commercial for years, make big money, use it to produce a movie that depicts Jews so poorly - your religion - your business - from being a fan - to saying - "F*** You"!
January 4, 2004 03:34 PM
I am so sorry you are full of hate Mike. Hopefully you will see the movie and find that the Messiah we Jews have sought has already come in the person of Yeshua. He loves you and wants to heal those bitter places in your heart. Praying for you...
January 5, 2004 12:28 PM
I read where Mel Gibson encountered the mystical
visions/meditations of Mary of Agreda - "The City of God" and "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ according to the Meditations of Anne Catherine Emmerich," the latter having fallen into his hands from
a bookshelf.
I got a hold of "The Dolorous Passion..." and began reading. Mostly about her background and about the Last Supper and the arrest of Jesus. These accounts
of the visions are in great detail, as well as providing
insight and inspiration into Christ's suffering and the role of his mother Mary in his Passion.
If I were directing, I would reckon these as good
research and preparation materials for writing the
script and honing the process of direction and
production of the film.
Most of all, Mel Gibson found these accounts to be inspirational enough to serve as an aid in crafting the
film.
I feel there will be a renewed interest in these works.
Worth reading.
Michele Peruzzi
to be informed by
January 7, 2004 03:08 PM
I'm glad that there is finally an effort being made to tell the story of Jesus in an accurate and realistic light. I've seen other passion films and while, cinematically, they were great, they still missed the target of accurately creating a work that did the original story justice.(I hate using the word story, since the passion was so much more than just a story, but that's the only word I can think of in this context.) The truth is, I don't believe that any film ever produced could do the story justice, but it's better that the graphic detail is shown. It will go further in enveloping the audience.
Also, I'd like to say that Christians really need to come together on our social issues. We allow ourselves to get sidetracked too easily and become split. We're the only group in the world that shoots itself down. Christians- at least in America- can't seem to nail down one doctrine or one cause. We've politicized our faith too much. We have to stop fighting each other. Whether the issue be the intention(s) of a controversial film or the authenticity of the story it's based on, we've got to unite; start doing more to make ourselves heard. We live in a country where the group that is heard the loudest gets the most attention, and while I believe very strongly in prayer, the world can't hear us if our heads are bowed. I'm not suggesting that we stop praying, but we do need to put some action to our prayers. Sure, God hears and answers prayer, but, there comes a point where He expects us to make a move; to, in a sense, meet Him halfway. (Not that He needs us to meet Him halfway, God just wants to see our dedication and will for Him to move.) Mel Gibson is really taking on this truth and battling all the forces trying to stop him. He's doing something that fewer and fewer Christians are doing: fighting for what he believes in. I, for one, am tired of seeing Christians fight each other. Let's fight the real enemy: Satan.
This movie just might effect the world. Heck, I'll even go out on a limb and say that maybe it could set off a revival, at least on a domestic plain. If not, at least it might prompt Hollywood to produce more Christian themed movies. See, I personally don't think that the majority of Hollywood is anti-Christian. But it is pro-money. Sex and violence sell, so movies are full of sex and violence. Christians should promote cleaner films. When you go see a film full of bad material, you cast your vote for that type of film whether you approve of that material or not. Filmmakers are in the business of making money. If Christian movies will make money, they'll produce them. Instead of protesting Hollywood, Christians should work with hollywood; evangelize it. The truth is, in the absence of God, there is Satan. If Christians were to penetrate Hollywood, they could filter out all the bad, and eventually reshape the entire industry.
I know that I need to wrap this up so I'll close by saying this: don't you think that Mel Gibson is leading by a great example? He truly seems to believe in his faith, and he's doing something to tell the world about it. I hope that his film will include Jesus' ascencion and The Great Commission. I'd say that Gibson is doing a great job of fulfilling that commandment. This movie will be seen by a lot of people. Maybe through this work, they will truly be able to understand The Passion of the Christ.(Pun intended.)
January 7, 2004 06:29 PM
I thought it odd, that Mel Gibson had a private viewing for John Paul II, when Gibson believes him to be a false pope (at least his father believes this), or at the very least the worst pope there has ever been, spiritually speaking. You see, Mel Gibson, is a traditional Catholic. He like all traditional Catholics find ourselves strangers in a strange land. I will go into this in more detail later, but my assertion is already proved by the fact that I have had to use the term "traditional Catholics" to distinguish those who believe what the Church has always taught from those who do not. The term Catholic can no longer be understood unequivocally, for we have two religions - the traditional and the modernist - both using the term.
At Vatican II, the Catholic Church was officially taken over by the modernists, and JPII is a modernist. Their religion is a new religion. It’s a break with the 2000 year past. It was a revolt against the 2000 Catholic Church. One day God will correct this when we are deserving, but for now real Catholics will have to live as strangers in a strange land.
This is 40 years since the Vatican II revolt, and few young people have known anything else but the “modernist version”. As an example, if you call yourselves a charismatic catholic, you have fallen prey to this “modernist new church”. I say this because Charismatism is nothing more than Protestant Pentecostalism repackaged and sold as “catholic”, and yet it has never ever been Catholic, and didn’t even exist till the late 1960’s. I could make a million examples like this, but suffice it to say that Mel Gibson is not a modernist catholic, and to him the typical American catholic parish is not really Catholic.
January 8, 2004 09:40 AM
I would have to disagree with some of your
takes on Vatican ll. Vatican ll was surprisingly
called by the legitimately elected Pope John
XXlll, the son of a policeman. He gave a very
clear directive to the assembly of bishops:
Do not be afraid of the prophets of doom.
An anointing is an anointing whether recognized 2000 years ago or 900 years ago
or last week. The Holy Ghost is always
fresh. So, you cannot harness Him. At
Vatican ll, the Holy Ghost was invoked.
Pope John XXlll placed the Church into the
hands of the Holy Ghost.
I can't think of a better pair of hands.
I think Vatican ll may very well have exposed
a lot of controlling priests who were drunk
with power. No one is immune to this type
of seduction. So, it makes perfect sense to
me that God would allow for a cleansing.
A holy cleansing.
I thought Vatican ll was a breath of fresh air,
compliments of the Holy Ghost. Again,
do not be afraid of the prophets of doom.
God knows how to take care of business,
and He will. I don't see any point to nip at
the papacy. If Mel Gibson doesn't believe
that the Pope is legitimate, then, really,
it is his loss. I don't worship movie stars.
A Roman Catholic is a Roman Catholic.
We are family. The church is a hearth. We
are to be baked as bread—to be Eucharist
to one another and to the world.
Michele Peruzzi
January 8, 2004 10:15 AM
Here's an excellent article about Vatican II... asks some very probing questions.
http://www.pro-gospel.org/2003-Main/Newsletters/1992-Volume01/vol01no5.pdf
January 8, 2004 06:16 PM
Michele,
The point of my writing was to show what is Mel Gibson's religion.
I've read what you've written and you sound like a well intentioned person, however, your verbiage indicates to me that you are one of the young who have never known anything but the modernist new catholic church of Vatican II. Suffice it to say that no Catholic spoke in the terms that you use. Those are Protestant expressions.
You said a Roman Catholic is a Roman Catholic, but I have to tell you that although a baptized Catholic for all eternity retains the baptismal mark on his soul, if they are in a state of sin they are not part of the Body of Christ. An example of these false catholics is Ted Kennedy.
You'll notice that in the new catholic church practically no one goes to confession. You'll find that married couples use contraception. Many have false annulments (In 1950’s the Church granted an average of 50 annulments per year worldwide. Today it’s 60,000 just in the USA), easily granted by the false new church! The new church forces sex ed. on children.(you can opt out in public schools, but the new church not only teaches sex ed,, they force the children, parents can’t opt-out.) All these sinners are not part of the Body. They are false Catholics. Not everyone that calls themselves Catholic is truly Catholic.
Stay close to the mother of God, love her, respect her, and Christ will love you.
January 8, 2004 06:19 PM
Although the recommended site is enervative,
yes enervative, one can sense the obtuse
"baiting and switching " that goes on—the
obtrusive style, pickled with attitude.
However, it gets kudos for accurately relating
that Jesus is present body, blood, soul and
divinity in the consecrated Host. And, yes,
we receive Jesus into our stomach again and
again. But we swallow Him first. He is food
for the hungry.
If you want the shoemaker to fix your car,
then speed on over.
Selah!
Michele Peruzzi
January 8, 2004 06:43 PM
Joel,
Again, the point of my writing was to show what is Mel Gibson's religion.
I'm a traditional Catholic, the sight you referred me to is full of errors and is not Catholic. I'm not one to get into discussions with Protestants since each one believes something different, I make it a practice to only answer when I'm sincerely asked.
I read this blog and see that you say you were Jewish. If I didn't believe in Christ, I would have been an Orthodox Jew. That is a real Jew. Here’s a snip from the book “Stories from The Catechist” (1922):
PRIEST, JEW, AND PARSON.-There is but one only true Church; and that is so evident that one possessed of even ordinary good sense cannot anywise doubt it. A Catholic priest and a Protestant minister were one day walking together; they chanced to meet a Jewish rabbi. "Hold !" said the Protestant minister, laughing, “ we three are of so many different religions ; now, which of us has the true one?" "I will tell you that," said the rabbi; "if the Messiah is not yet come, it is I ; if the Messiah has come, it is this Catholic priest; but as for you, whether the Messiah be come or not, you are not in the right way."-
I’d advise you to continue your search for truth.
January 8, 2004 07:08 PM
Dear no name,
You do not get it, do you?
I don't sound like anyone else. You want me to sound like you. Not my bag.
Better to ingest the Word of God and let
Jesus guide you in your life.
Surprise! I'm very pre-Vatican ll. I haven't
lost the faith. You sound disobedient to
the Pope. And that's a valid point. You should not be concerned about someone else's
sin. Wrong focus. "Fix your eyes on Jesus."
You are entitled to your opinion, but you talk
more about religion than the actual
relationship you have with Jesus. Please
run into His arms. He's the only one
who can minister to you regarding any
questions you may have. Outsiders don't
get it.
I go to confession. If others don't go, they're
fooling themselves. Their arrogance keeps
them away. They don't want to be ministered
to. (I hate ending sentences with a preposi-
tion, but I'm going for sense here.)
I know that you are sincere, but post your
name with your comments and stand up
behind what you say. Otherwise, it seems as
though you want to abandon your entry.
Is there a real person there?
Hope so.
Michele Peruzzi
January 9, 2004 10:57 AM
Michele, I answer [your comments]-
[I don't sound like anyone else.]
-I said it doesn't sound Catholic. You do sound like any Protestant.
[You want me to sound like you.]
-I expect you to sound Catholic, that is what you are.
[Better to ingest the Word of God and let Jesus guide you in your life.]
- Better than what? Is it better than proper guidance from a good priest who is knowledgeable as to what the Church has always taught (hard to find today)? "Ingest the word of God" is a Protestant expression, it means to read the bible and be guided by your own subjective interpretation. That's never been Catholic. We have to follow the bible as it was always interpreted from the time of it's revelation (that's tradition).
[I'm very pre-Vatican ll. I haven't lost the faith.]
- I didn't say you lost the Faith, how would I know that? You may have been born Pre-VatII, but you were obviously educated in the faith post-VatII. You have never lived anything but the new modernist church's religion.
[You sound disobedient to the Pope.]
- I am obedient to all the popes and this pope is disobedient to all the popes. When he is disobedient I do not follow.I don't follow the pope (or any clergy) when I clearly conclude the he is contradicting all the past popes. That's the only way a Catholic can be disobedient to a pope.
[You should not be concerned about someone else's sin."Fix your eyes on Jesus."]
- a Catholic’s concern with others sins, is because he is concerned for their eternal salvation. Those examples I gave were sins of the clergy and sins of the laity. These examples do not exist in my congregation because the priests do their job in guiding the faithful. It exists in such large numbers (ex: 80% of Catholic women use contraception) in the new modernist church because the priests are not guiding, they are telling you to follow your conscience, which means whatever. That’s never been Catholic.
[You are entitled to your opinion]
- False, I am not entitled to my own opinion. My own opinion could be wrong. I must follow what the Church has always taught. That is my only security.
[You talk more about religion than the actual relationship you have with Jesus].
- “your own relationship with Christ” is a Protestant, subjective, individualist idea, and just means anything goes. This term has never been employed by Catholics. That expression defines Protestantism.
It says “whatever you think God is, and what He’s telling you, that’s what it is.”
[Outsiders don't get it.]
- How do you know that it is not God who has sent me to teach you? God almost never works direct, He works through “outsiders”. He did not reconcile the world by the snap of His finger, He sent an angel (an outsider) to asked Mary (an outsider) for her permission, then incarnated Himself. He reconciled the world through the human form (an outsider). He spread his gospel through the word and efforts of men. All of this is indirect.
[Post your name]
-Best to leave things as they are. A name won’t change the message.
Pray many Rosaries, stay close to the mother of God.
January 9, 2004 01:04 PM
No name,
Do you feel better now?
Come on out from behind your bush and
and taste responsibility. It would be a nice
change for you.
Contraception violates chastity. It prevents
life. It is a deliberate act.
Non-Catholics don't teach that. So, where is
chastity in their belief system? Who knows?
But it sure might upset a lot of non-Catholics.
To which my answer would be—tough.
Teacher? But of course. Everyone is my teacher. Some people teach real well, too.
There's no substitute for it. But what I learn
is not what they think they're teaching.
God is so Good.
The rosary is very special, indeed. But these
days the Blessed Mother wants to help all of
God's children. I say the rosary already.
Hope you are well.
Michele Peruzzi
January 10, 2004 10:44 PM
Interesting.
I hope this movie is good. I do think people need to learn to be nice to each other and respectful.
I'm glad to know that I have a savior, this world is so confusing.
January 12, 2004 11:04 AM
At the risk of getting teamed up on, I'm going to say that I'm Protestant Assembly and, just out of curiosity, what's wrong with that? I noticed that the word Potestant gets thrown around here like it's an insult. I'm asking out of sincere ignorance. I don't know much about the Catholic faith. I'm not against Catholicism, and I'd like to know more about it so that I can understand it. Somebody help me out!
January 12, 2004 02:32 PM
Seth, that is a very good question. Nothing
is wrong with the name Protestant Assembly.
In a much larger sense, when people talk
about religion, these names are descripters.
Catholic, Protestant, Penticostal, Baptist,
Four Square, and so on, are indications of
where you are coming from in terms of what
you believe. Catholics claim to be the main
trunk of the tree, following in apostolic
succession with Jesus as the foundation
of our Faith. The main deposit of Faith being
first place there.
Anything else would be a splinter group.
In that Luther began this movement in
protest, that's where the word got used so
much.
I have close friends who are Protestant,
and I love them dearly, and we discuss
this stuff all the time. We are on friendly
ground and explore the questions of life.
We share what goes on at church and
we talk about Jesus. When I turn to them
in times of need, they are there. They
understand me, and there is a strong bond.
They know that they can turn to me in time
of struggle.
Some christians have objections about
each others' faith. Catholics seem to have
the most attention placed on them. The claims
made against the church are fierce. Words
like deceivers and liars are used to describe
the Catholic Church. It's all very interesting
and quite hostile.
So, the beat goes on. Some things never change.
There is so much more that needs to happen
in order for people to get along. Many more
outlooks are out there besides mine.
People get degrees in this kind of thing.
It's where you place your emphasis I guess.
Good will to all.
Michele Peruzzi
January 12, 2004 06:16 PM
Seth,
For what it is worth, the owner of this site is Protestant and not a supporter of the monolithic catholic man-made religion. While Michele and others seem to be very sweet people, and quite possibly Biblical Christians, the church they subscribe to is not. It has strayed far from the original beliefs of the first century church and is now in apostosy.
Mary worship, the Pope, confession to Priests, the Mass, venial and mortal sin, and many more areas of doctrine oppose the whole of God's Holy Word. I have no intent to debate these topics here, but for further research, may I recommend this site...
http://www.pro-gospel.org/
The owner was a dedicated Roman Catholic for 33 years. Once born again by the Spirit of God, the truth of the Catholic church became apparant. He saw no way to stay within the church and stay true to the Scriptures. Today, he travels the world speaking at conferences and challenging the doctrine of the Catholic church so that people may be freed from its deceptive snare. He has seen countless souls released from bondage and now living free in Christ according to the scriptures and the Spirit of God. :-)
Joel
January 12, 2004 06:20 PM
I think it would be an interesting screening to have all the responding patrons of this blog.
1. It could turn into the biggest revival meeting ever or...
2. It could turn into a Jerry Springer episode...
either way there is no way the audience would remain unaffected.
Hi, M.P...long time no read. Still as spunky as ever.
God Bless!
January 13, 2004 12:07 AM
How bold of you to post this. I found you while looking for info on the movie. I used a quote of yours on my website, (a blogring) but I linked it to you, so you got the credit. You can view it at my URL and if you want me to remove it, I will not be offended in the least. Great writing here and great credentials. Congrats on your success! I just learned how to create an email account about a year and a half ago. Technology use to scare me! But now I'm learning...
January 13, 2004 12:34 PM
I am as well as my church are waiting to see the movie. We are expecting it to shine light on the ultimate sacrafice that Jesus gave His precious and sinless life for us.(sinners) Thank God for Mel Gibson being obedient and leting God use Him. My God continue to bless him and his family. And reguardless of what anyone has to say negative...God's word declairs "if you stand for me who can stand against you". And the answer is NO ONE!
January 13, 2004 03:30 PM
I appreciate that we have men like Mel Gibson willing to use there talents to tell a story that is so filled with unconditional love. I myself hope that non-believers as well as believers take the movie in the seriousness that it was made and fall to their knees and thank the almighty God for the gift that he gave the human race all those years ago. Thank you God for sending Jesus to us and thank you Jesus for giving of yourself. I love you and will try to always do the right things.
January 13, 2004 07:54 PM
I just realized last night that I left the address to my webaise and not the particular blog I wanted your permission to quote you on. If it's fine, don't worry about mailing me back, but I assume you don't care since I gave a link to your blog, and you put it on here anyway for the whole world to read, so I won't worry about it.
January 14, 2004 11:04 AM
To be democratic, allow me to give equal time to reality,
What Joel, has said should be qualified, and so I repeat what Joel wrote with some qualifiers added:
"For what it is worth, the owner of this site is Protestant [whatever that means to me] and not a supporter of [what I believe to be ] the monolithic catholic man-made religion [although every single Protestant sect can be traced to a man who started it, and the Catholic Church was always there, and I can’t seem to find the man who started it].
While Michele and others seem to be very sweet people, and quite possibly Biblical Christians [whatever that means], the Church they subscribe to is not [In my opinion as a convert from some kind of Judaism who has read the opinions of anti-Catholics who know about this stuff!].
It has strayed far from the original beliefs of the first century Church [and I know exactly what the 1st century Church believed, they believed everything that I do. Don’t ask me to sight original writings of how the Church was, trust me, I’m an expert on the 1st century Church.] and is now in apostasy [from my own idea of what Christianity should be, my religion].
Mary worship, the pope, confession to priests, the Mass, venial and mortal sin, and many more areas of doctrine oppose the whole of God's Holy Word [which I know how to interpret without error. Believe me, I'm infallible]. I have no intent to debate these topics here [but I will give my give my opinion here anyways], but for further research, may I recommend this site... [let me recommend a good anti-catholic sight, which doesn’t allow any debate from Catholics]
http://www.pro-gospel.org/
The owner was a dedicated Roman Catholic for 33 years [like Ted Kennedy, whatever that means]. Once born again by the Spirit of God [whatever that means], the truth of the Catholic Church became apparent [ to him, after going to other anti-Catholics and learning all this stuff.].
He saw no way to stay within the Church and stay true to the scriptures [as he interpreted them, So, he started his own religion, and now makes a living from it. He couldn’t do that in the Catholic Church because those mean priests have a monopoly on preaching]. Today, he travels the world speaking at conferences [to anyone that will pay him or listen] and challenging the doctrine of the Catholic Church [but he won’t allow anyone to debate his own religion] so that people may be freed from its deceptive snare [which he knows because he was a Catholic for 33 years, like Ted Kennedy]. He has seen countless [well, maybe a dozen] souls released from bondage and now living free in Christ according to the scriptures [which according to me says that you can disregard those mean Ten commandments and sin all you want, because you’re already saved by Jesus’ Blood. Don’t let yourself be held by the bondage of the Catholic Church’s and Judaism’s ten commandments, your already guaranteed Heaven, don’t worry, be happy!] and the Spirit of God [or at least my interpretation] :
If you want to know about Capitalism don't ask a communist.
January 14, 2004 12:56 PM
Nice try nuclcurve! Way off, but nice try.
I guess it all depends on what your definition of "is" is...
Joel
January 14, 2004 02:09 PM
Joel,
I congratulate you on your sense of humor!
January 14, 2004 03:41 PM
It will never cease to amaze me how a heated debate will rage around anything to do with Jesus. This movie hasn't even been released and there's the usual Protestant vs. Catholic rhetoric, the Jewish defensive postioning, the labelling of Gibson by seculars as 'extremely conservative' and 'ultra conservative', etc, as though this was a political race instead of a movie. If it's really as accurate as Mel Gibson contends it is, I hope this film sets the bar for box office attendance for years to come. If it's lacking context, then I'm sure it will fare well with the critics but it should still spur some to investigate further - which is probably a good part of Gibson's motivation for this venture to begin with - so the main reason for the eternal controversy probably isn't about the movie (did I mention it hasn't been released yet?) as much as it is John and Jane's 2 cents worth of "what Jesus means to me" while the subject is at hand. (gee, has it been two millennia already?)
January 14, 2004 04:23 PM
No.
It just takes some people that long to express themselves.
Especially if they use their hands.
Michele
January 14, 2004 05:37 PM
This movies surely and utterly does not please THE ALMIGHTY GOD and THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. This movie is the work of an evil generation that seeks a sign. As THE LORD JESUS CHRIST SAID "This is an evil generation; it seeketh a sign." How much more, then, when this generation seeks to see a portrayal of THE LORD of GLORY being crucified and put to an open shame before men? Do you not know that it is most sinful to "crucify to themselves THE SON OF GOD afresh and to put HIM to an open shame?" This is what this movie does, and woe to mel gibson and the others responsible for it. For the have gone after the wicked reward of unrighteousness, betraying THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, as did Judas. As THE LORD JESUS CHRIST SAID "THE SON of man goeth, as It Is Written of HIM, but woe to that man by whom HE is betrayed." "It were good for him if he had never been born." Even so, mel gibson and others do betray THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST'S Sufferings were not appointed so that man can be entertained at theatres. And surely, if a man does not believe except he see THE LORD portrayed suffering, then his faith is not a saving faith; it is a claim, and nothing. THE WORD OF GOD SAYS "Thou shalt not take THE NAME of THE LORD thy GOD in vain. HE will not hold him guiltless who taketh HIS NAME in vain."
Also, I would have you to know that the other book that is used as reference is a book with many lies, written by a catholic liar.
This movie is being done by a catholic. GOD has no pleasure upon catholicism, but they are a congregation of HIS wrath. WHen they take their most accursed eucharist, they do crucify to themselves THE SON OF GOD afresh, saying that HE is crucified repeatedly. Such is extremely blasphemy. For THE WORD OF GOD SAYS that "By THIS MAN'S (JESUS CHRIST'S) Offering of HIMSELF on The Cross One Time, HE hath forever perfected them who are sanctified." "CHRIST hath once died, THE JUST for the unjust." If one crucifies to himself THE SON OF GOD afresh, he has no more place for repentance, but is accursed forever.
Woe to mel gibson. This is a work of this evil, apostate generation. They make way also for the antichrist, who will unite the world, and will seem to be JESUS, but is not, and will seem to bring "peace and revival" to the middle east and to the world. Then the seeming "revivals" already kindled will devour the earth. By seeming "healing and being delivered out of the wrath to come," people will be being consumed by that very wrath.
Beware. Beware of this wicked movie that betrays THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. Those who love THE LORD do not rejoice to see HIM suffer. But THE LORD JESUS CHRIST will come in utter GLORY to cause this wicked world to pass away in fire, and HE will destroy those who have pierced HIM through their actions and words.
"The Day of THE LORD shall come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with A Great Noise, and the elements shall melt with A Fervent Heat, and the earth also, and the works that are therein, shall be burned up."
Those who take money and give money for this movie do partake of guilt.
GLORY TO THE ALMIGHTY INFINITE GOD and HIS MOST HOLY SON JESUS CHRIST THE LORD. GLORY TO THE ALMIGHTY GOD and THE HOLY KING JESUS CHRIST THE LORD. "There is no other." Amen.
--jason shick,
servant of THE LORD and KING JESUS CHRIST
January 14, 2004 06:56 PM
Attention all Catholics, all 1 billion of you,
Attention all Eastern Orthodox, all 300 million of you, You were wrong all those centuries!
On behalf of 1.3+ billion people throughout the world who believe in the exact same Real Presence, I want to thank you Pastor Jason for enlightening us as to our being wrong for 2000 years.
Michele P., now you see why it's not a good idea to post your name.
In all seriousness, As an icon of Protestantism, Jason is entitled to interpret the bible as he understands it.
If he were a Catholic, he could not come up with these ideas, because they would have been decided long ago.
January 14, 2004 08:19 PM
Ok, first of all, let me disavow any connection with Mr. Shick, who may write with the best intentions, but it out in right field. Shoot, he ain't even in the ball park.
As for 1.3 billion people being wrong, that is certainly quite possible. Jesus said the gate to destruction was wide and the gate to life was narrow. Besides, there are easily several billion hindus, buddhists and people practicing other false religions. The number of adherents is not a reliable indication of the validity of their beliefs.
Joel
January 14, 2004 08:20 PM
P.S. - I would LOVE to see you folks discuss some of the other issues on my blog. I post interesting topics regularly... besides, this page is getting WAY long. Click the cartoon of me at the top and check out today's entry!
Joel
January 15, 2004 10:59 AM
Joel,
This page is not Way too long. Everyone's
just getting started.
Mr. Schick's comments make me feel all
warm and fuzzy inside. I feel safe already.
Yeah, right.
No name,
All is forgiven. love your humor. Adds a touch
of class.
Michele
January 15, 2004 03:19 PM
Every other discussion becomes as nothing when one is discussing the most important matter of our existence here on earth, our salvation and truth.
P.S.- there are indeed billion Hindus, Buddhists and people practicing other false religions, but you are not using a book they put together as your guide to eternal salvation, like your using that New Testament, which was put together by the Catholic Church.
Besides, none of those false religions, have any unity of doctrine. Neither do Protestants, Jews or any other religion. Outside the Catholic Church, each person is his own infallible pope.
January 15, 2004 05:29 PM
You are correct about God being the most important topic.. in fact, the only topic, seeing that He is all and is in all. However, since we are on this planet for a time, we are wise to find truth in all manners of topics and issues, especially since they relate to our God-ordained everyday lives. :-)
The Catholic Church of days gone by is not the Catholic church of today. The pope (with a small p) is nothing more than a sinful man, and a heretical one as far as I am concerned. God gives him no more respect or honor than He gives to me. According to Scripture, I am a Priest. I am Holy. I am an heir with Christ. I am eternally secure. The pope nor the Catholic church offer anything that can help me spiritually, either now or in the afterlife.
And yes, there are many false doctrines, and an incredible lack of unity amongst all "religions" of the world. Are you telling me the Catholic church is united?
May I suggest having the courage to read Mike Gendron's latest article on contradictions within the catechism? He lays out what the catechism says about baptism, salvation, infallibility and several other key issues. Let Catholic doctrine speak and then compare it to Scripture. Only the most stubborn (or deceived) heart can miss the glaring errors in Catholic doctrine that are exposed here.
http://www.pro-gospel.org/2003-Main/Newsletters/2004-Volume13/Vol13no1.pdf
Anyhow, I shall let you folks carry on this discussion without me. I have a new entry to post today!
God's Peace to you
Joel
January 15, 2004 08:52 PM
The Catholic Church has always been united in doctrine, never opposed one pope to another, all believers united one to the other. Here's a list of Popes till the year 399, when the Catholic Church put together the bible. I could add all the rest till today, but it's too long.
Yes, always united, one and the same doctrines in every detail, unlike all the man made religions including Protestants, not really a religion, since it's a rebellion, a protest against something else, doesn't even have a name of it's own, only recognizes 66 books as their bible (why 66 of all numbers!), and has as many sects as there are supposed members (supposed because how can someone be called a member when no one agrees with each other on anything. Lords day is Saturday, no Sunday. Baptism is required, no it's not. Crucifix's insult Christ, No it's OK. and on and on and on….).
The Catholic Church, no doctrine disagrees with the prior teachings, all the way back to the source, the beginning, the revelations of Jesus Christ.
St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125)
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296)
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66)
St. Damasus I (366-83)
St. Siricius (384-99)
Think Joel, and focus on only this, - If there was ever an ancient Christian that thought the way that you do, there would be some ancient church that agrees with you. But there isn’t a one that thinks as you do. All the ancient Middle Eastern Christian Churches that separated from the Catholic Church (and therefore would be different for one reason or another or they would have remained Catholic), all of them have the same sacraments, beliefs and liturgical sacrifice as the Catholic Church. Why isn’t there one ancient church somewhere that believes the things “Protestants” do? Why isn’t there one church that separated because they didn’t believe in the Holy Sacrifice? Not a one! Could it be because Christ didn’t teach what your anti-Catholic sources say he did, and Christians never thought that way? Not one person in the whole of the ancient churches professes what these people have taught you.
I had said previous that “I don’t discuss religion with Protestants unless I’m asked, because each one has different beliefs”, and here I’ve broken my policy. My apologies for taking up so much space, and specially with the popes listing.
January 15, 2004 11:39 PM
Nonsense. The Bible is very clear on these issues. I don't need an organization to teach me how to read the Word of God. The Word itself promises that the Holy Spirit will be our teacher, leading and directing us into the things of God, made possible by the sacrifice of His Son.
Christ is my authority. To the Father through Him alone I shall answer. And PRAISE be to Him for I am now free in Christ. His Holy Spirit indwells me, formerly a sinner and now a Saint made Holy by the incredible, unfathomable grace of God, eternally secure and part of the living Body of Christ, composed of God's true Church, His people, and not erroneously directed by a man-made organization. It is well with my soul :-)
Joel
January 16, 2004 08:16 AM
Joel,
For the sake of democracy let me qualify what you wrote:
Nonsense. [I’ll ignore all your logic]. The Bible [As I interpret it] is very clear [once you've cracked the code like I did] on these issues. I don't need an organization
[I am the new and improved organization of one, I'm infallible] to teach me how to read the Word of God. The Word itself [as I see it] promises that the Holy Spirit [my conscience] will be our [my] teacher, leading and directing us [me] into the things of God [as long as they agree with me], made possible by the sacrifice of His Son.
Christ [my conscience] is my authority. To the Father through Him [on my terms] alone I shall answer. And PRAISE be to Him for I am now free in Christ [weeeee! fuzzy warm stuff!]. His Holy Spirit [my conscience] indwells me, formerly a sinner and now a Saint [I am a god], made Holy by the incredible unfathomable grace of God [I'm full of it], eternally secure [no worries and happy!] and part of the living Body of Christ [I think], composed of God's true Church [me], His people [my wife and children], and not erroneously directed by a man-made organization [I’m now directed by me, mini-god ].
It is well with my soul [fuzzy warm stuff!]
Joel,
What you wrote shook my very foundation, so I went back and re-read scripture, and there it was, how could all of ancient Christianity not have seen it! Catholics were all wrong for 2000 years! How could billions of brilliant minds have not seen it? And there it was right at the beginning of the bible. They must have been reading only their New Testament, for there it was in the first book of the Old Testament. In Genesis 3:5 –
“Ye shall be as gods”
Stay focused, think –
If there was ever an ancient Christian that thought the way that you do, there would be some ancient church that agrees with you still practicing that today. There would be some record of who they were and why they vanished without a trace. But there isn’t a Christian that thinks as you do, and there never was, not one person even. On the other hand, all the ancient churches agree with the Catholic Church in their liturgy, and sacraments, in the Holy Sacrifice, sin, and salvation.
January 16, 2004 08:32 AM
I wonder where nuclcurve got his lists of popes. You can walk into any Catholic bookstore and, depending on which official authoritative source you read, you will find a variety of different lists.
The Catholic Church teaches that Peter was the chief apostle and the rock upon which Jesus would build His church. They base this doctrine on a misinterpretation of Matthew 16:18 where Jesus said, "You are Peter (petros - stone) and on this rock (petra - mass of rock) I will build my church.” However, the Greek word "petra" is feminine and therefore is not normal to use it in reference to the masculine Peter. Jesus did not say, “upon thee I will build my church.” Peter knew, without a doubt, that Jesus was not referring to him as “the rock” because he proclaimed Jesus as “the rock” (1 Peter 2:6-8) "Petra" must refer to Peter’s confession of faith which he made after Jesus asked him, "Who do you say I am." Paul also referred to Jesus as the rock: “they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ” (1 Cor. 10:4). It was James, not Peter, who presided over the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:13, 19). And it was the apostles who sent Peter to preach, rather than Peter sending them (Acts 8:14). Who do the Scriptures teach is the foundation, the chief cornerstone and the head of His church?
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 3:11).
And God placed all things under His (Christ’s) feet and appointed Him to be head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills everything in every way. (The church or household of God is) built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone
(Eph. 1:22-23; 2:20).
The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus gave Peter and his successors authority over the church when He offered them the keys to the kingdom (Mat 16:19). Peter first opened heaven by proclaiming the Gospel to the Jews (Acts 2:14), then the Gentiles (Acts 15:7, 14). It is only by believing the Gospel that people are loosed from their sins. Anyone who rejects the gospel remains bound in his or her sin. All born-again Christians possess these keys. The Gospel is clearly the only key that can open the gates of heaven.
I am not ashamed of the Gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile (Rom. 1:16).
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36).
The Catholic Church declares its popes are infallible when speaking "ex cathedra" in matters of faith and morals, but are they really? There have been numerous accounts of popes contradicting each other’s proclamations as well as the Bible. When we look at the life of Peter, whom Catholics believe was their first pope, we see clearly that he was not infallible. Paul used the Gospel to show Peter he was wrong in Galatians 2:11-14.
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong…The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the Gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? (Gal. 2:11-14).
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men" (Mat. 16:23).
Peter asked, "Lord, why can't I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you." Then Jesus answered, "Will you really lay down your life for me? I tell you the truth, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times (John 13:37-38).
Jesus never established the papacy or a hierarchy of authority for the church. In fact he instructed the apostles to avoid ruling the church this way. Yet today we see within the Roman Catholic Church an enormous structure of monsignors, bishops, archbishops, cardinals and a pope ruling over the lay people. What did Jesus say would be the characteristic of greatness?
Jesus said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant (Mat. 20:25-26).
The critical decision Catholics must make is this: Will I submit to the Lord Jesus Christ as Head of the church or a man who dares to wear the title of "Holy Father" a title reserved for God alone.
January 16, 2004 10:00 AM
Nuc, your qualification of what I wrote is entirely wrong and does not describe what I believe in the least. So you can rest easy knowing your interpretitive skills are in dire need of the Lord's assistance. ;-)
On the other hand, Mike has nailed it. Scripture backed by logic and common sense. And this is how the light is turned on for Catholics willing to shed their pride, part with dogma, and come into the fullness of Jesus Christ.
Joel
January 16, 2004 10:57 AM
To deny that the Catholic Church doesn't
have problems would be wrong. We do.
The church is human. The apostles were
human. They had fights with each other,
but they were always open to discovery.
They would have to be because of the
qualities of grace. God's "ways'" are not are
ways. Working on human nature is always
a deep thing. Paul said that God told him
after he requested that his thorn in his side
be removed that His grace shows up best
in weakness.
Everything, everything needs to be done
in humility. Jesus' washing the feet of the
apostles is key here. The infrastructure
of the church is made up of human beings,
and therefore subject to temptation and
sin. Paul's request was denied, but his
prayer was answered. God's grace abounds
where there is weakness and sin. And grace
builds on nature. If it didn't, none of us would
get any better or be led to grow in virtue.
The church is always in need of reform.
The sacraments of the church have always
been instruments of "fire." if believers have
grown "cold" or indifferent, as life can sometimes have that effect, then we have no
"fire." And that is always bad. The Holy Spirit
is the Author of that "fire." And He can be grieved. If we insist on grieving Him by
resisting His grace and giving into pride, then
we miss the opportunity for "fire" in all that we
do—even administration in the church.
Pope Gregory the Great must have perceived
something askew in the attitude of men
when he coined the title that he preferred
to be called—"the servant of the servants
of God."
I'll leave it to the scholars and historians and
other bonafide experts to conclude who
was pope when. I'm more concerned with
what I should do for Christ in my everyday
life. And to foster an active prayer life and
to read the scriptures with faith.
I'm sure Mr. Gendron loves Jesus. The points he brings up and the observations he has
are brought up in good faith it seems.
Sometimes the church needs the criticism
to wake up. Jesus said he would send
another advocate. The Holy Spirit.
And that He would never leave us nor forsake
us. I rest in the peace that that is true.
Michele
January 16, 2004 11:18 AM
P. S. I am Roman Catholic in this day and
age because I believe what the Church teaches and the doctrine identified with it —
namely, the Nicene Creed. And since the
Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, I am
satisfied that He is with us as promised
and guaranteed by Christ Himself.
I accept the Church warts and all.
Jesus restored Peter three times on the
shore. Feed my lambs. Feed my sheep.
Michele
January 16, 2004 12:09 PM
Allow me to qualify what Mike Gendron has said:,
I wonder where nuclcurve got his lists of popes. You can walk into any Catholic bookstore and, depending on which official authoritative source you read, you will find a variety of different lists. [Listen to me, I know a lot about this stuff, for I left the Catholic Church because they could only confirm authoritatively the exact name and order of only 260 of the 265 popes they've had since the year 33. Never mind that I can't find one ancient church that agrees with this religion (profitable business) that I came up with.]
The Catholic Church teaches that Peter was the chief apostle and the rock upon which Jesus would build His church. [don’t worry your little minds that all the ancient churches acknowledge the same list of early popes, trust me.] They base this doctrine on a misinterpretation [Though I can't understand how they got it so wrong since Mathew himself was there, and the first popes were the Apostles direct disciples. But never mind those details, I read the bible 2000 years later and I know better why they did what they did in the first century. Let me explain it all] Matthew 16:18 where Jesus said......,
The critical decision Catholics must make is this: Will I submit to the Lord Jesus Christ as Head of the church or a man [other than me of course, you can submit your minds to me, I'm infallible, trust me. Let me appeal to your natural repulsion for submitting to anyone (other than me), and make you think you are submitting to a man/pope, rather than to the 2000 years of unity in doctrine of the Catholic Church. Let me give you instead a continuation of the confusion of "Protestantism", where nothing is definitive] who dares to wear the title of "Holy Father" [mean Old Pope] a title reserved for God alone
[DISCLAIMER- The information contained herein is believed to be true, but can’t be guaranteed as to reliability, accuracy or completeness, Mike Gendron Inc., will not be responsible for anything, which may result from one’s reliance on this material, nor the opinions expressed herein]
Stay focused, think –
If there was ever an ancient Christian that thought the way that you do, there would be some ancient church that agrees with you still practicing that today. There would be some record of who they were and why they vanished without a trace. But there isn’t a Christian that thinks as you do, and there never was, not one person even. On the other hand, all the ancient churches agree with the Catholic Church in their liturgy, and sacraments, in the Holy Sacrifice, sin, and salvation.
January 16, 2004 03:59 PM
What does anyone think they are going to
"see" when they view Mel's film?
If you are satisfied with the scriptures only,
then why bother going? Or is there a voice
from within telling you to go?
You just may "discover" artistically what you
cannot fathom otherwise, through any other
human faculties.
If Mel's doing his job, you will experience
the Passion minus the superficial skimming
of scripture. It will be up on it's feet.
No one will be simply quoting scripture in
ancient languages.
You're going to be made to deal with much
more than that.
Michele
January 16, 2004 07:56 PM
My hope for the film is that it will increase my love for Christ by helping me identify with what He did for me on an even deeper level. Sometimes we read the Word and have heard it so many times that we forget just what Christ went through to pay our ransom. We are a visual culture and it is my prayer that the visuals in this timeless tale will touch hearts and minds in a way that our generation has never seen before. :-)
Joel
January 16, 2004 10:13 PM
Can one be Roman Catholic and be born again? Of course, I like to say that Iam a Born Again Spirit filled, bible believing baptized in the Holy Spirit Roman Catholic Priest.Iam looking forward to Mel Gibsons movie on the Passion. I pray it leads people to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and to realize what God did for us.How much he loved us. May we keep our eyes fixed on Jesus,The Holy Roman Catholic Church has had to go through some difficult times in the past and in the present,and future, but she is grafted onto the true vine who is Christ.The problem with Catholics and I speak as one, is that we need to be evangelized. Its not enough to know about Jesus, you need to get to know Jesus, in your heart.Too many of us are dead in the pews I know I see the apathy.I yeach my people to
become empowered by the Spirit, to stir into flame the gift of the Spirit that has been given.
And we all need to be servants of one another to wash eachothers feet in humility and love.
when we do this the world will be transformed and the kingdom of God will be alot closer.
respectfully, Fr. Paul.
January 17, 2004 01:08 PM
My name is Misty Erickson and I work for Youth for Christ in Holton Kansas. I am so very proud of Mr. Mel Gibson for the stand he is making for Jesus Christ. I was already one of this most avid fans for movies such as Braveheart and We Were Soldiers and more, but this is the BEST! I am so proud of him for standing up for our JESUS!
My prayers are with him and his family and the film, and we plan to take our clubs, (YFC is an outreach ministry); to the film as soon as it gets to Topeka.
If there is some way I can help support it other than prayer please let me know!
Thank you!
Blessings all over Mr. Gibson, his family and all involved with the making of "The Passion"!
Sincerely,
<><
January 17, 2004 08:52 PM
Fr. Paul (Father indeed, yeah right!)
At first reading of what you wrote, I immediately took action and made good use of an old airline barf bag I had by my desk.
Then I came to my senses, very funny, calling yourself Father Paul like you were a Catholic priest, then giving us your Protestant Pentecostal minister empty worded drivel:
born again
Spirit filled
Bible believing
Baptized in the Holy Spirit
Accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior
May we keep our eyes on Jesus
We need to be evangelized
You need to know Jesus in your heart
become empowered in the Spirit
Love and the world will be transformed
If you really were a priest, I would tell you why your parishioners are dead in the pews, they're dead (the one's you didn't chase away) because you killed them, with all these undefined salt less clichés!
Warm and fuzzies, peace and love,
January 18, 2004 09:17 PM
Dear Nulcurve, thank you for responding.
I consider myself one who respects both the scriptural and traditional teachings of the church. meaning Holy Scripture and The teachings of the Fathers, ie. St. Thomas Aquinas et. al.and more than just respect i try to live by them as best i can being a poor sinner in need of penance and deeper conversion to Christ and his Cross.
Its interesting to note that many of the saints of old experienced what you might call pentecostal charismatic gifts, which for your information have been alive in the church since the first century. St Theresa of Avila in her classic writing the INTERIOR CASTLE speaks of spiritual intoxication Even St Phillip Neri levitated and experienced holy joy and laughter.
in the Spirit. What I preach is not peace love and warm fuzzies, on the contrary. I preach the way of the cross, and encourage my people to true holiness of life,and encourage them to be fully Roman Catholic ie. rosary, devotion to Our Blessed Mother,and the Saints,novenas,stations of the cross,and all that is truly part of the faith of our Fathers living still to quote my favorite catholic hymn. I also love gregorian chant and welcome the use of latin and greek (kyrie) in the mass on occasion Ilament that we threw away what is truly beautiful in our tradition far too quickly and replaced it with many things which are banal and poorly styled.
I think we are rediscovering the treasures of our roman catholic faith and we are in the midst of a true Catholic revial where we are rediscovering the treasures of the faith that were ignored and put in the spiritual attic.
witness the revival of perpetual adoration of the most blessed sacrament especially among surprizingly catholics who consider themselves pentecostal . they are in the forefront of the
revival of dynmaic orthodoxy.
the warm fuzzies and the 70s style love peace stuff the true warm fuzzies are gone and i do not miss them at all a deeper maturity has set into the church. i have great hope for the future and iam proud to be a born again bible believing holy ghost filled orthodox faithful Roman Catholic priest ordained for 20 years. i invite you to join me in praying MANY rosaries using the new mysteries of light asking our Blessed Mothers intercession for all that needs to yet happen in our church Dominus Vobiscum and Benedicamus Dominum Laudamus te Dominum! Fr. Paul
January 18, 2004 09:23 PM
Dear Nulcurve, sorry for the typo i mean to say dynamic orthodoxy which means orthodoxy that is alive in the spirit ever growing and alive.
pacem Fr. Paul
January 19, 2004 09:57 AM
Joel, that was a really good answer regarding
why you would want to go to Mel's film.
I feel the same. But I also will be paying attention to the cinematic symbolism that
Mel has delved into. This is a work of art,
no less important than the artists of another
age. We'll have to compare notes after the
film opens.
I find Fr. Paul's remarks refreshing. As for
people being dead in the pew, I've seen them.
I am not one of them. If their ethnic background causes them to repress any
kind of enthusiasim for Jesus, then I feel
bad about that. Football and Bingo don't
seem to be a problem. To each his own.
I need a soda pop.
Michele
January 19, 2004 11:17 AM
Absolutely Michele... I love viewing films for what is "underneath" the surface. Are you following my series on the 15 Best Movies Ever? I tend to pick things apart a little more than the average movie-goer, usually attempting to tackle the issues of spirituality and morality found in films.
http://www.joelcomm.com/archives/cat_the_15_best_movies_ever.html
Enjoy!
January 19, 2004 03:08 PM
In an attempt to lighten the building tension here, I'd like to say... This flick is going to look awesome in a theater. I intend to go see this film in the biggest and loudest theater in which this film will be made availabe (in Chicago). Stadium seating, Digital Surround, tub of popcorn, a huge pop, a box of Milk Duds and I will be set. Forget all that talk about how this movie further offends Jesus and God. I think that would all depend on the state of mind of the creators of the film...and it looks to me like their heads are in the right place.
Unfortunately, as in most religions, the message somehow gets diluted and the point is lost. It's for that reason I don't subscribe to the idea of organized religion although I am a respector of all religions short of Nazi-ism and Satanism. My point is, on this blog, I see alot of people who truly love Jesus....So, can't we all just get along ? Can't we all stop taking opinions and biased teachings (whatever the case may be) and passing them off as fact or law.
It's not Gods' intention to have us turn on each other, least of all over Jesus' sacrifice.
I'm tired of all this, "nails in hands or wrists, in feet or in ankles, carried the cross or crossbeam ?". If it were you in that spot, would you care to pick after having been whipped and beaten ? C'mon, try it... hands or wrists, feet or ankles, cross or crossbeam ? Forget the scripture quoting for one second and understand the sacrifice... that alone is enough to convince me as opposed to picking apart scores of scriptures in order to back up ones theory (in most cases). "Mr. Gibson, I'm with you on this one !"
Here I be, MP.
Sincerely,
Fuego
January 19, 2004 03:50 PM
Way to go, Fuego! Understand the sacrifice.
I can go there.
Michele
January 19, 2004 06:56 PM
Yeah Fuego. I was reading these blogs and thinking the same thing. The arguments in our faith are just simply....out there. Was Jesus white or black? Was his hair long? Did he have blue eyes? C'mon, now. Does it really matter? NO! There's only one thing about all that that does matter: his blood was red, and He shed it. And you're right about something else: He doesn't want us to argue about it. And no offense to the guy, but Jason Schick is an example of what I posted earlier. We Christians tend to shoot down anybody that has a difference in opinion with us. We've got our own ideas and our own little world that we just don't want bothered. Jason is entitled to his opinion, whether we agree with it or not. The only reason I said he's an example is because not only did he say that Gibson is wrong, but he claimed that the guy is ushering in the coming Anti-Christ. Sure, he can have his opinions, but he voiced them the wrong way. If you don't agree with someone, tell them that you don't agree with them. Don't tell them that they're wrong and on their way to Hell. Don't condemn. They've simply been misinformed or deceived.As Christians, our sole purpose is to serve the Lord. We have to get to Heaven, and bring as many people as we can with us. We need to come together on that goal and quit lashing out at each other. That's what Satan wants us to do; he wants us to get divided. Let's keep the conversation here a conversation- maybe a debate if it comes to that. But not a shouting match. The Word says that if you condemn you will be condemned. Besides, there could be a lost person reading this stuff. Division and condemnation just simply doesn't make Christianity appealing. Who wants to willingly join a group like that?
Yours in Christ,
Bless ya'll
P.S.
I'm sorry Jason for pointing you out. It's out of love, though, I promise. I wasn't trying to make you look bad.
Oh yeah, Michele- you rock! Got lots of love for you over here. I like the way you think. You have good ideas and an open mind. The world needs more people like that.
January 20, 2004 12:34 PM
Thanks Seth & MP,
Did you happen to see that show, "Entertainment Tonight" on Thursday ? If not , they showed a completely different trailer for the film that lasted a little over 3 min. It was, for lack of a better word,...SA-WEEET!! As the previous trailers did, this one causes an indescribable case of goosebumps.
I'm sure, if you didn't catch it, you can find it somewhere on the web. It starts with a very quiet moment during Christ's intervention of Mary of Magdelene and carries on with a series of different moments during the "via dolorosa", including a slow motion shot of Jesus taking one of those falls, that is just heart wrenching. I don't want to give it all away, but keep an eye out for it as I am positive that It is available somewhere as the film draws closer.
Toodaloo !
January 20, 2004 12:38 PM
Someone should tell Joel to open up a post-release blog !!
January 21, 2004 08:19 PM
Joel,
Who are these so-called Catholics you say "And there are Catholics that are skeptical the movie will conform with the four Gospels", and what are they saying? Can you give me a link to the articles?
January 22, 2004 01:35 PM
No Name, look for a posting by Mil on
August 12, 2003 at 7:53 AM.
You'll find the comment there.
January 22, 2004 06:01 PM
Thanks Michele,
Is that it? Mel Aug.12th is one person, who doesn't even believe in the Trinity. Joel wrote that piece based on a Mel?
P.S. How do you like my new name?
January 23, 2004 07:56 AM
I hope the movie The Passion of The Christ, a vivid depiction of the last 12 hours in the life of Jesus wil move viewers to a deeper understanding of the pain and suffering, torture and death that the Lord Jesus endured to save sinners. However Gibson, a devout Roman Catholic, believes the offering of Jesus as the perfect sacrifice for sin must be repeated over 200,000 times each day throughout the world for Catholics to make satisfaction for their sins. In an excerpt from the forward of the book that inspired him, Gibson writes that he hopes
The Passion of The Christ will let Jesus help people save their own lives. This is just another example of how Catholics believe that the death of Jesus Christ was not sufficient to save sinners completely and forever.
I am deeply concerned that this film will be promoted by more and more evangelicals who lack
discernment. Their endorsements will ultimately build another bridge across the deep chasm that
separates biblical Christianity from the false gospel of Roman Catholicism. Professing Christians may be wrongly influenced to cross that bridge and join the apostate church of Rome. Knowing this in advance, we can educate our friends and church leaders with our tract: "Is A Roman Catholic Christian An Oxymoron?" http://www.pro-gospel.org/2003-Main/Shop/samples/oxy3proof_2.pdf
January 23, 2004 02:52 PM
Hey Gendron (alias Mr.Infallible)
All you need to add to your advertising is to ask for donations to your one man religion.
P.S. - You also forgot your disclaimer.
[DISCLAIMER- The information contained herein is believed to be true, but can’t be guaranteed as to reliability, accuracy or completeness, Mike Gendron Inc., will not be responsible for anything, which may result from one’s reliance on this material, nor the opinions expressed herein]
January 23, 2004 02:56 PM
Stay focused Gendron and think –
If there was ever an ancient Christian that thought the way that you do, there would be some ancient church that agrees with you still practicing that today. There would be some record of who they were and why they vanished without a trace. But there isn’t an ancient Christian Church still existing today that thinks as you do, and there never was, not one person even. On the other hand, all the ancient churches agree with the Catholic Church in their liturgy, and sacraments, in the Holy Sacrifice, sin, and salvation.
January 26, 2004 10:33 AM
Nuclcurve must not know what the true church is. It is the body of Christ made up of all those who have been called out of the world by God through His word, which is the imperishable seed. There has always been a remnant of this church, a church that has been sanctified by the truth and submits to Christ as the Head (not the pope). All the Father chooses are drawn, all who are drawn come to Jesus, all who come are received by Jesus, all who are received were given as a gift from the Father to the Son, all who were given are kept by Jesus for all eternity.
They are secured by the Father’s power
the Son’s promise
and the Spirit’s Sealing
The Roman Catholic Church does not teach these Gospel truths and is therefore an apostate church that departed from the faith 1600 years ago.
January 26, 2004 12:59 PM
I am a born-again, Protestant, Christian, who attends and watches movies on TV regularly, but I'm probably not going to see this movie. It has nothing to do with the Protestant/Catholic/Jewish issues that have been posted on this blog. I have several reasons for my decision.
1. The depictions of extreme violence, particularly in the spiritual/emotional/personal context in which they seem they will be presented, will disturb me, probably in a quite unproductive way. I'm one of those people who has to leave the theater when Bambi's mother dies. :-) Seriously, rather than strengthening my faith, the violence will just leave me depressed and disgusted.
2. My faith in Christ is secure even without seeing the film. I don't need to see it to believe it. (Didn't Jesus say that that was more blessed than belief based on seeing?)
3. I find it impossible to watch movies about Christ (or any othe "Christian" type movie--i.e. "Left Behind" etc.) First of all, I feel like I'm required to like them or to be moved by them. If I find some flaw, or if I'm not moved spiritually, I feel uncomfortable, like I'm missing something I should be seeing as a believer. Secondly, I feel like I must watch Christian-themed films as a spiritual experience rather than as a source of entertainment or information. In other words, although I'm watching a movie, I feel that I must watch in a reverential, Sunday-School mode. For example, I would feel awkward running out for popcorn during the scourging scene in Gibson's movie or munching on Snowcaps during the Crucifixion sequence.
4. I feel pressured to watch this movie. Already, at my church, there have been several announcements, discussions, e-mails, and plans to rent out a movie theater auditorium for a showing just for our congregation. Going to see this film is almost becoming a sacred rite. Try telling people you don't want to go see the film, and they look at you like you just renounced your faith.
January 26, 2004 01:03 PM
Here we go...
Peace to all.
In laymen's terms, the Catholic Church
recognizes that it must "apply" the Word of
God. We apply Jusus' sacrifice, daily,
around the world, at different times, because
it makes sense to do so. I can't be with
Tunaba + his family in Western Africa when
Mass is being said here. (Get it?)
Jesus' sacrifice and its reality of a powerful,
effective, Holy oblation is applied as needed
to each person's situation. At Mass, we receive Him as spiritual food. When we
confess, the blood sacrifice of Jesus is
applied through Ministry. We are renewed
even daily if we fall into sin.
Others' understanding is quite different. I can hear that difference of understanding every
time it is expressed. We follow the
Christians who devoted themselves to the
Breaking of the Bread.
Devotion takes on a whole new hue of
meaning. Even non-Catholic ministers
invoke the blood of Jesus to excise demons
and evil spirits they suspect people of
suffering from. And they do it again and again.
Interesting. Very.
Michele
January 26, 2004 01:22 PM
Dear Eddie,
Boy, if Bambi's moms' death made you leave the theater, The Lion King must have screwed you up. Maybe you should stay home and let the big people handle it.
If understanding the ultimate sacrifice disturbs you, maybe you should go Muslim (or at least rethink your beliefs.) I hear they don't subscribe to the idea of Jesus' death. Maybe you'll be able to sleep better at night...just a suggestion.
Sincerely,
Fuego
January 26, 2004 01:45 PM
I strongly believe that Christ died on the cross and rose again. I know that the death He died was horrific, full of blood and agony, and it was my fault, our fault...He died for us. However, that doesn't mean I want to watch close-ups of the nails being driven into his hands or flesh being torn from his back during the scourging.
I was kidding about Bambi, but just the thought of seeing the kind of graphic violence this movie is supposed to have is depressing to me. I know it really happened. I don't want to watch a graphic movie about it. In terms of my beliefs and faith, I don't need to see it to believe.
January 26, 2004 01:48 PM
Fuego is TOTALLY out of line.
Eddie, I completely understand your point of view. You are not the only one that is highly sensitive to violence and blood.
It does not make you any less spiritual. And anyone who tries to persuade you otherwise is clearly in the wrong.
January 26, 2004 02:04 PM
For all the points that Mr. Gendron pushes
forth, they don't arrive at a point.
Meanwhile, according to Paul, we have a
race to run.
We worship The Word who is Jesus.
The written, inspired word of God is to
be contemplated upon and obeyed.
The Word made Flesh is the One who is
worthy of worship—He who is the Second
Person of the Godhead.
Really fellas.
The more relevant point is, when do you "receive" Him? [Not mentioned above.]
I am one who seeks God's Holy Will.
The power, I know about and respect.
As far as the Spirit goes: we all are
responsible for any leaks.
It's a relationship, remember.
Eddie, I find what you say reasonable.
If you can't go, you can't go. Stick by that
decision.
As Creflo Dollar would say from scripture:
"In all your getting, get understanding."
Funny he should say that.
Michele
January 26, 2004 02:23 PM
Mr.Gendron,
You really should put a disclaimer, since it is only your one man religion.
Stay focused on my question. I'm not only talking about the Catholic Church, I'm talking about every single ancient Christian church! They all believe the same as the Catholic Church concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the mass, the seven sacraments, mortal sin, and that the keeping of the 10 commandments is required for salvation.
Not one ancient church existing today or ever having existed, ever believed the things you preach today. There was never a Christian that believed what you preach.
Stay focused on that, before you go on with your babel.
January 26, 2004 02:41 PM
The bottom line of your one man religion is that:
As long as you believe in Jesus Christ, you can disregard the 10 commandments and sin all you want (that means you can fornicate, sodomize, abort babies, and murder people everyday for the rest of your life), because you are already saved.
That's the bottom line. All the rest of your anti-Catholic rantings are smoke screen.
And that "Gendron religion" was never believed by any ancient Jew or by any ancient Christian Church.
January 26, 2004 02:58 PM
Allow me to interpret what you are saying using your own grid...
The bottom line of your one man religion is that:
[I have a difficult time reconciling the fact that millions of other people believe as you do, so I'll just make you out to be a wacko]
As long as you believe in Jesus Christ, you can disregard the 10 commandments and sin all you want because you are already saved.
[I know you don't really believe this, but I am going to pin this theology on you anyhow. I'm not really listening to what you are saying and don't have the time to read the Scripture to see what it really says. And you can point out Scripture to me, but I'll twist it to meet my own needs. See, you can't win with me. Not even with logic]
That's the bottom line. All the rest of your anti-Catholic rantings are smoke screen.
[I am troubled by my weak belief system and don't want anyone to see it]
And that "Gendron religion" was never believed by any ancient Jew or by any ancient Christian Church.
[I'm really a Pharisee in disguise. Uh oh, you've seen through it, haven't you?]
;-)
For the record, I know for a fact that Mike does not subscribe to that which you have asserted. I'm not sure that matters to you, though.
Joel
January 26, 2004 03:55 PM
Joel (alias 2nd member of Gendron’s religion),
So, now millions of people believe as Gendron? Do they believe 100% or 10%? In what do they agree? In what do they disagree? Since we know very little of what Gendron believes, except that he read the bible and he is anti-Catholic, I suppose that you are right, insofar as millions of people have read the bible and millions hate the Catholic Church. That, does not make a religion, or any group.
If my analysis of Mr. Gendron's bottom line doctrine of "all ready saved no matter how much you sin" doctrine was incorrect, then please explain to me what happens "according to Gendron" to those who continue to sin (lie, cheat, swindle, spousal infidelity, fornication, sodomy, abortion, murder) after they say they have accepted Jesus into their hearts?
Once again, you have not answered the question on which you should be focused:
Stay focused on my question. I'm not only talking about the Catholic Church, I'm talking about every single ancient Christian church! They all believe the same as the Catholic Church concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the mass, the seven sacraments, mortal sin, and that the keeping of the 10 commandments is required for salvation.
Not one ancient church existing today or ever having existed, ever believed the things you preach today. There was never a Christian that believed what you preach.
Stay focused on that, before you go on to any other matter. Keep it short and simple (KISS).
January 26, 2004 04:39 PM
A sincere Question for Mr. Gendron:
How can you automatically think that because
Evangelicals will give their approval of this film when thry see it, that they will possibly want
to join the "apostate" Catholic Church, and
that they have no discernment?
Aren't you depriving them of the acknowledgement that when they have the
Spirit, that this is one of the gifts of the indwelling Spirit?
These of course are for personal holiness.
You fear that they "lack discernment."
My God, who is gonna help them?
I would think that what is more fearful for
some is that they will be drawn to Jesus'
presence in the breaking of the bread.
Whatever is in the movie will be there.
The movie reflects Mel's beliefs. Maybe,
you shouldn't go. Not if you're gonna get
all fearful about it.
Anyway, I still believe you love Jesus. And
He loves you. No insults of any kind intended.
Michele P.
January 26, 2004 08:11 PM
Joel,
Since you agree with Mr. Gendron, you too can answer my question,
If my analysis of Mr. Gendron's bottom line doctrine of "already saved no matter how much you sin" doctrine was incorrect, then please explain to me what happens "according to Gendron" to someone who "is saved by accepting Jesus into his heart", if he continues/starts a life of lying, swindling, and fornicating, what happens to him if he is instantly killed by a heart attack while fornicating? Does he go to Heaven or not?
January 26, 2004 08:52 PM
No one is answering your question that you repeat again and again because it comes from too many false assumptions.
In regard to your last question, I refer you to Ephesian 2:8-9. I think you are hung up on the doctrines of sanctification and justification.
Joel
January 27, 2004 06:57 AM
Joel,
With all the writing that you and Gendron do, I don't understand why you can't answer that one simple question I asked. Gendron spouts unsubstantiated comments such as that Catholic Church was invented 1600 years ago, and yet he does not explain what early Christian writings/writers/historians he's getting his information from? My question is a sincere question, in the spirit of the quest for truth.
Second point concerning "already saved no matter what you do:
Your response -"I refer you to Ephesian 2:8-9." - Does not answer my question. It reminds me of certain professors that when asked a question, would tell you to read your text book. Well, I did read my text book, that's precisely why I'm asking the question, I don't see the answer to my question in the text book.
I made an analysis of "Gendron's doctrine" of "you are already saved no matter what you do", you answered that my analysis was not what Gendron believes, and so I asked you a hypothetical question in order to know what Gendron believes, if indeed it is not as I had surmised?
These are questions any non-believer would want answered by a religion, these are important questions. They have nothing to do with Catholic or other specific religions.
Two simple questions. If you can't answer the "historical" question, then answer the "already saved no matter what you do question". A religion/prophet/pastor that can’t answer questions is not of much use to the sheep seeking protection from the wolves.
January 28, 2004 09:35 AM
Hello to all,
We seem to be at a stop gap.
Michele
January 28, 2004 11:57 AM
Boy !!... Joel says I'm out of line to someone else, but yet he responds directly to nulcurve's obvious hostility.
January 28, 2004 04:06 PM
I think it's called selective answering.
Anyway, these things tend to take on a life
of their own.
Am now reading "St. Antony of the Desert,"
written by St. Athanasius. Antony's life span
being c. 251–356 A.D.
St. Athanasius' lifespan being c.297–373 A.D.
Both men are Egyptian.
This is a thin volume from TAN books.
ISBN 0-89555-525-5
A good read. Opens up the world of ancient
times and of the gifts of prayer and miracles.
Michele
January 28, 2004 04:40 PM
DJ.. you were way out of line and I had nothing to say to you. Nuclcurve is at least being civil.
I am selectively "not" answering nuc's question because I don't believe he is honestly seeking. If Mike wants to reply, he may. I am more than happy to converse on spiritual matters with seekers, but I've been in these conversations before and they go nowhere.
My blog exists so I can give my opinion. I allow dissenting opinions, but I am not here to defend my self or my beliefs. Its a matter of managing my time as best as I can, and I have more pressing matters to deal with on a regular basis.
But I am delighted that you folks have used this particular place for discourse. I can't believe how long the comments on this page go!
I'll do a new entry for the film once I see it next month. Can't wait!
January 28, 2004 05:28 PM
The question what happens "according to Gendron" to someone who "is saved by accepting Jesus into his heart", if he continues/starts a life of lying, swindling, and fornicating, what happens to him if he is instantly killed by a heart attack while fornicating? Does he go to Heaven or not?
First of all "according to Gendron" should never be considered. The only thing that matters is what God has revealed through His word.
Secondly, no one is saved by "accepting Jesus". Salvation is given as a gift to those who "repent and believe the Gospel" Mark 1:14. To believe the Gospel is to believe that God has accomplished in Christ everything that is necessary for a sinner for to be forgiven, reconciled to God, redeemed from the curse of the law, adopted into God's eternal family, justified and acquitted according to God's justice, made alive in the Spirit and sealed guaranteeing an eternal inheritance. At the moment of the repentant sinner's conversion, they become a new creature in Christ, no longer slaves to sin but now slaves to righteousness. Their desire is now to live a life pleasing to God by worshipping Him in Spirit and truth, putting to death the evil deeds of the flesh and living a life controlled by the Holy Spirit. If the new creature falls into temptation and sins, there is an advocate in heaven, the exalted Lord Jesus Christ who intercedes. What happens if one who has been justified by God dies in the act of sin? Since he had been made perfect forever in his standing before God, he is brought into heaven to honor, worship and glorify his Savior throughout all eternity.
One thing must be considered. Since man does nothing to save himself, he can do nothing to lose his salvation. Salvation is a sovereign act of God based on his will and purpose that cannot be thwarted by man. Those God justifies He glorifies (Rom. 8:28-30)! God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29)
January 28, 2004 06:37 PM
Reply to Joel,
Thank You for your response to me and I do understand the selectivity of your answers to others. I myself am not trying to elicit a prescribed response, I just blurt out my opinions with my big mouth and I've attracted lots of flak because of it. Unfortunately, that's the kind of person I am and I chance alot by being this way. Fortunately, there is no mystery behind my responses and that's better than nothing. I am also eagerly awaiting the release of the film and look forward to commenting here after having seen the film. If I thought differently, you wouldn't have seen any posts by me at all.
Thanx.
January 29, 2004 10:13 AM
Reply to Michelle,
How can you automatically think that because
Evangelicals will give their approval of this film when thry see it, that they will possibly want to join the "apostate" Catholic Church, and
that they have no discernment?
According to Paul, believers have differing amount of discernment. He wrote: "I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment (Phil. 1:9) The more mature a believer becomes the more discernment he gains (Heb 5:14). We also know from Scripture that in the end times many, without discernment, will fall away from the true faith into apostasy.
Jesus is not present in the Eucharist. He told us when, where and how He would return a 2nd time to the earth and He has not returned yet. Jesus warned us of false Christs, yet so many worship the Eucharist, which is a false Christ, and therefore they are committing the most serious sin of idolatry.
May God draw you to the true Christ, who now sits at His right hand, not in tabernacles made with human hands.
January 29, 2004 11:27 AM
Hi everyone,
Mi name is Felix, I´m catholic ( also I´m spanish, so forgive my poor engish -hola a todos los que hablan español-)and can´t wait to see the movie.
I loved Peter arguments. Sorry I don´t see him anymore.
A few facts: I have been interested in Mel for a long time, more as a person more than as star. Gibson has praise JP II many times. He is catholic (and no a branch-off)JP II has defend the "right" of traditinalist of Tridentina Mass, and of course, Latin Masses, which it´s no the same (myself have been attenden to one for about 8 years)Nuc, you should read Vatican II documents, I found many surprises. The mistakes and herexy didn´t came from there, it was only an excuse for some people.
I was ready to write down a lot of arguments and historical testimonys from the II century christians,and to answer (or try to) to MIKE and Joel interpretations of the New Testament... but the fact is than there have been already lay down reasonable points of discussion and haven´t been respond. Focus the point, leaving a moment the theological question: Joel, you have said the catholic Church is Constantinus doing. Could you give any historical fact? until now you have just denied. Suposse we are wrong and our historical acounts false. ok. Now is your turn.
I´m a convert and I have to confess that my love to history is older than my love to God. Looking for truth I find Good, trying to understand Good I find God, looking for God I find Christ, and when I tried to be a true christian I found the Holy Church. So I hope you take me as a seeker and respond. I found many protestans who enter in the Church after studing the primitive Church, and no one the other way around. Most common is the sentimental one.Also, sorry if I ask you, but which church are you from. It colud help the talks. Right now it looks a Catholic versus "all the rest" game.
Sorry for murder english and thank you for this page.
Félix
January 29, 2004 11:31 AM
Opps!!!!
I have just read my own post. I was right. I have really murder english. Sorry about that.
Félix Ángel
January 29, 2004 01:41 PM
Re: Mr.Gendron's explanation:
I read what you wrote and it just confirms what I wrote all along, and what Joel criticized by saying "that's not as Gendron believes". There is one minor difference you say that person is saved no matter how much he sins, "if he repents and believes the Gospel". So, I'll rephrase what I said the first time to Mr. Gendron January 26, 2004 02:41 PM:
The bottom line of your one man religion is that:
As long as "a man repents and believes the Gospel", then he can disregard the 10 commandments and sin all he wants (that means he can fornicate, sodomize, abort babies, and murder people everyday for the rest of your life), because he is already saved.
That's the bottom line. All the rest of your anti-Catholic rhetoric is just smoke screen.
And that "Gendron religion" was never believed by any ancient Jew or by any ancient Christian Church.
January 29, 2004 02:03 PM
Michele,
Re: book "St. Anthony of the Desert," by St. Athanasius.
I have read the book. It's a short book, easy to read. Excellent. I highly recommend it.
Since Anthony's life span was 251–356 A.D., and the biographer, St. Athanasius' lifespan was c.297–373 A.D., and they were both Catholics, they would have existed before the Catholic Church was invented 1600 years ago "according to Gendron" right? Or maybe Mr. Gendron should change that to "that the Catholic Church was invented 1800 years ago".
January 29, 2004 02:12 PM
Mr. Gendron,
Thank you for your response. You're basing
your claim on the Second Coming. We call
it the Parousia from the Greek word
pareinai, which means to be present.
So then, Parousia means presence or
arrival.
The Eucharist was a gift from Jesus of
himself at the Last Supper before he died.
He gave the gift of himself to be repeated
in the bread and the wine. And he intrusted that gift to his apostles. The Eucharist is
complete and full. The entire mystery of
salvation is present in the Eucharist. Jesus'
life, death and resurrection is truly present.
We are receiving the resurrected Jesus in
the Eucharist.
There is nothing lacking. This gift was given before he died on the cross for our sins. He
is our Paschal Lamb. He never left earth in
this form. He told us to repeat it. He is with us.
Yes, he ascended to the Father. Yes, he
will come again as judge. I look forward to
that day. But the Eucharist is still here.
"They devoted themselves to the breaking of
the bread."
A lot of people walked away from Jesus
when he said "unless you eat my flesh
and drink my blood, you'll have no life in you."
He lost a lot of followers that day.
You have to really be able to follow Jesus.
True insight is born of true devotion. I believe
his words. Simple as that.
I'm not walking around with a lot of baggage
that would prevent me from recognizing
that he is really present in the consecrated
bread and wine. Humility will do.
The one thing that Satan would love to attack
is the Eucharist. No one had to tell me that.
Satan loves to pull people away from Christ.
He's a sneaky, conniving fallen angel.
And the only thing worh attacking is the
Truth. Anything else is a waste of time.
I am not ashamed of Jesus in the Eucharist.
He is the pearl of great price. And you know
who you're not supposed to throw those
in front of.
With discernment, I was thinking along the
lines of Isaiah 11, when you receive
wisdom, knowledge and counsel, et al.
Handle enough 20 dollar bills, you know
a bad one when you run across it.
If the POT of your life lies around like
broken shards, you will not only hurt others
but you soon will have no discernment.
It is my pleasure to write this entry. The Lord
is doing an "inside" job on me, and he's
doing it through the Eucharist. If we lift
him up, he can draw all men to himself.
Peace,
Michele Peruzzi
January 29, 2004 03:47 PM
I see where I had a typo. Sorry for that.
You're not alone Felix. Welcome to the
clm bake.
No Name,
Yes, I agree about the book on Antony.
That's the way his name is spelled in the
book. Whatever.
What I find interesting are the attacks by
by the demons. His stay in the tombs.
And his intense attention to scripture as it
was being spoken aloud.
BooYa.
Michele
January 29, 2004 05:12 PM
Felix Angel,
Welcome to the party Happy Angel! You write in English better than we in Spanish, so don't worry about the words, the content is solid.
Are you writing from a city in Spain?
re: "I have to confess that my love to history is older than my love to God" -
Nuc came to the Church through the same historical path.
There's just one line you wrote that I don't understand, "Most common is the sentimental one".
Please elaborate what you mean by this?
Dominus Vobiscum
January 30, 2004 12:55 AM
Here’s something on Saint Antony (251–356 A.D.) from “The Liturgical Year” by Abbot Dom Prosper Gueranger, 1854, (One of two must have books for all Catholic homes. #1 Haydock Bible, #2 Liturgical Year. Expensive, but worth their weight in gold. Get them at the best Catholic bookstore www.catholictreasures.com)
"Antony was born in Egypt, of noble and Christian parents, who left him an orphan at an early age. Having one day entered a Church, he heard these words of the Gospel being read: “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell all thou hast, and give to the poor”. He took them as addressed to himself, and thought it his duty to obey these words of Christ his Lord. Selling therefore his possessions, he distributed all the money among the poor. Being freed from these obstacles, he resolved to lead on earth a heavenly life. But at his entrance on the perils of such a combat, he felt that besides the shield of faith, wherewith he was armed, he must needs fortify himself with the other virtues; and so ardent was his desire to possess them, that whomsoever he saw excelling in any virtue, him did he study to imitate.
Nothing, therefore, could exceed his continency and vigilance. He surpassed all in patience, meekness, mercy, humility, manual labour, and the study of the Sacred Scriptures. So great was his aversion for the company of, or conversation with, heretics, especially the Arians, that he used to say that we ought not even to go near them. He lay on the ground when necessity obliged him to ~sleep. As to fasting, he practised it with so much fervour that his only nourishment was bread seasoned with salt, and he quenched his thirst with water; neither did he take this his food and drink until sunset, and frequently abstained from it altogether for two successive days. He very frequently spent the whole night in prayer. Antony became so valiant a soldier of God that the enemy of mankind, ill-brooking such extraordinary virtue, attacked him with manifold temptations; but the Saint overcame them all by fasting and prayer. Neither did his victories over Satan make him heedless, for he knew how innumerable are the devil's artifices for injuring souls.
Knowing this, he betook himself into one of the largest deserts of Egypt, where such was his progress in Christian perfection that the wicked spirits, whose attacks grew more furious as Antony's resistance grew more resolute, became the object of his contempt, so much so indeed, that he would sometimes taunt them for their weakness. When encouraging his disciples to fight against the devil, and teaching them the arms wherewith they would vanquish him, he used often to say to them: 'Believe me, Brethren, Satan dreads the watchings of holy men, and their prayers, and fasts, and voluntary poverty, and works of mercy, and humility, and above all, their ardent love for Christ our Lord, at the mere sign of whose most holy Cross he is disabled and put to flight.' So formidable was he to the devils that many persons in Egypt who were possessed by them were delivered by invoking Antony's name. So great, too, was his reputation for sanctity, that Constantine the Great and his sons wrote to him, commending themselves to his prayers. At length, having reached the hundred and fifth year of his age, and having received a countless number into his institute, he called his Monks together; and having instructed them how to regulate their lives according to Christian perfection, he, venerated both for the miracles he had wrought, and for the holiness of his life, departed from this world to heaven on the sixteenth of the Calends of February."
January 30, 2004 11:27 AM
No Name,
Haydock sounds precious. I'll look into it.
I noted the other.
Holy Zeal is "fire shut up in my bones."
Those oldtimers were hip. We could stand a little of that in these days. What was the math
on that? A very short answer will do.
Pacem, pax, mir,
Michele P.
January 30, 2004 04:32 PM
Hello again to all,
I won't be posting any more.
My work is done here.
Stay ultra close to Jesus and enjoy the
film.
Live your lives without fear and claim that
holy zest for living. Break chops all
you Catholics. Never be ashamed.
Christ's peace always,
Michele Peruzzi
January 30, 2004 05:58 PM
Good luck!!!!Mel,dont worrie about what others say or think,only God can judge you or me,not any man or women on this earth can.So let God deal with them that try to judge you.
January 30, 2004 08:12 PM
The Roman Catholic Church is the original church of Jesus Christ, everyone else broke away from us.
The church existed before the New Testament, the gospel of Mark was written 50 A.D. the church existed before that with an oral traditon. our sacraments and all that we believe come from our founder Jesus, who is the author of all that we believe. We are not apostates, rather all of you who protested against us are. You may consider yourselves Christians but its a selective Christianity you embrace. We Catholics have it all and embrace it all because we are the proverbial trunk of the tree. all mysticism all spirituality come from us. i suggest Gendron and all who think like him read Scott Hahns ROME SWEET HOME, to see how a former protest-tant realized from the bible that he could not be anything else BUT Catholic. its an eye opener.
pax et bonum Fr. Paul
February 1, 2004 06:12 AM
The one who calls himself Father Paul (when Jesus said don't call anyone Father) wrote "We Catholics have it all and embrace it all because we are the proverbial trunk of the tree." Catholics don't have the complete forgiveness of sins that Jesus offers, nor do they have His perfect righteousness that is imputed to all believers, nor do they have the assurance of eternal life based on His promises nor do they have a direct relationship with God through His mediatorship. Why don't you read what Jesus and the apostles wrote instead of Scott Hahn, who joined your church because of a miracle, after he employed the ungodly practice of praying to someone other than God through the rosary.
Genuine Christian faith forsakes any and all teaching that does not conform with Scripture (2 Tim.3: 15-16). If faith is genuine, the exclusive object must be the Lord Jesus Christ - the eternal Son of God, who sovereignly secures the salvation of sinners. He satisfied all the demands of God’s holy law then laid His life down as a substitute for sinners who come to Him with empty hands of faith. To trust the Lord Jesus is to forsake all other efforts, means and mediators for salvation (Acts 4:12).
Those who believe a gospel of sacraments and good works have believed in vain (1 Cor. 15:2). If you are relying on purgatory and indulgences, then you are not trusting Jesus to save you completely (Heb. 7:25).
The only work that can save sinners is the finished work of redemption accomplished by Christ. No other work will do (Psalm 49:7-8). Jesus paid the eternal debt for sin and lived the perfect life required for entrance into heaven. Christ died "for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God" (1 Pet. 3:18). Thus for sinful man to believe his works can add to, co-mingle with, complement or surpass the perfect work of Christ is an insult to God's holiness and justice.
God made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people (Hebrews 9:28). By one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy (Hebrews 10:14). Through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:47).
There is only one way to be saved, and that is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9). And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace (Romans 11:6). You must cease from trusting in works that cannot save you and put all your trust and confidence in the Lord Jesus Christ and His perfect, sufficient and finished sacrifice!
February 2, 2004 11:17 AM
Mr. Gendron,
You don't write as if you seem to have the
word of God integrated into your being.
Everything is on the outside where you
can control it. Be transformed by the renewal
of your mind.
Read Scott Hahn. You might learn something.
And you just might be grateful. No offense
intended. It just seems as though you have
a death grip on the Catholic Church. You
seem to be afraid unless you attack it.
To attack the truth of the Church is to
recognize that it is true. Nothing else is worth
attacking. I hope some day that you see the
truth. And in the meantime God bless you.
Michele Peruzzi
(i decided to post in good faith)
February 2, 2004 03:28 PM
Michele,
I know Mike personally. He is none of the things you ascribe to him in your post. In fact, Mike is one of the kindest, gentlest spirit-filled Believers I have ever come in contact with. His love for Jesus and for people is evident in his life.
Contrary to your preconceived notions, it was the Catholic church that had a death-grip on Mike for three decades. Now that he is free, he merely wishes to share the truth with others who are being led astray. Since the Lord beseeches us to "reason together", Mike shares Scripture which reveals the grave error in Catholic doctrine. After all, God is a God of reason and wishes us to engage our minds.
I know it may seem convenient to attempt to label Mike as "afraid" so as to arrive at a conclusion that puts him in a box that you can understand, but I assure you that is most certainly not the case.
Just thought I would stand up for a fellow laborer.
Joel
February 2, 2004 04:11 PM
Joel,
Whatever has been said about errors, has
been said with a lack of understanding
as to what the Church is. I don't recognize
what Mike G. describes as errors in the
Church. But then again, I go to Church and
am fed. I have plenty of experience.
And Jesus has blessed me through the
Church. It is not my intention to put Mike G.
in a box. I can sense a type of fear that
goes along with someone who attacks
the Church tha way he does. You claim
different. That's fine. It's probably not that
important to anything anyway.
There needs to be dialogue amongst the
churches in order to make any headway
in understanding each other. When that is cut
off, no progress can be made.
I can't see that happening here. The body
of Christ is broken. And I'm just a regular
person. We all pass like ships in the night,
tragically missing one another.
It would have been fun to get to know you,
Joel. I'm glad you found the Messiah.
At least you were open to Jesus. That makes
me smile.
Michele Peruzzi
February 2, 2004 06:33 PM
Reply to Mr. Gendron,
You said "First of all "according to Gendron" should never be considered. The only thing that matters is what God has revealed through His word."
But then you go on to give us your "according to Gendron" interpretation of scripture!
Where do you find any passage in the Bible appointing you to expound the Gospel to anyone? What right, what title have you to set yourself up as an authoritative and infallible interpreter of it to others? You are simply airing your own opinions.
“You say “I Am a saved man”, and I say perhaps you are not, that is a disputable point. In any case, that is a purely subjective matter, which is not capable of being demonstrated to anybody else; and, therefore, is of no consequence to me."
I do not wish to insult you, but it is plain to me that you are only a self-constituted preacher of certain stock phrases about salvation torn haphazard out of the New Testament, without coherence or connection with the rest.
February 2, 2004 08:50 PM
REPLY TO MR GENDRON:
I believe that Jesus died for my sins and those of all Catholics we do have a direct line to our founder Jesus Christ. It is my fear that you who are a former Catholic, really do not fully underatand or even want to understand the scriptural basis of Catholic Christianity, its teachings and practices which are all derived from the Word of God. not literally as you who are a literalist would expect but by inference.
Are you aware of that passage in St.Paul that says hold fast to the traditons I handed down to you. we are a church of scripture and tradition.
do not settle for a shallow protestant definition of this nor of why catholic priests are called father. but read what the catholic church really teaches about this and discover it is not idolatry
at all. Read more than just some shallow protestant evangelical rant, but study from the catholic church what the church really teaches.
but iam sure you will just dismiss my suggestions.and prove true the old adage- theres no arguing with a fundamentalist, they neither want to or desire to investigate the deeper meanings of things because they want to persist in their black and white literal world.... so sad,... you are missing so much of the riches of Christianity contained in Catholic faith. no use arguing with you you will never see things my way and I will never see things your way...
when there is no dialouge as Michelle observes, there is no possibility of true understanding. so sad.... Respectfully, Fr. Paul.
respectfully, Fr. Paul.
February 2, 2004 09:05 PM
REPLY TO MR GENDRON 2
Actually I have tried to understand your point of view and have not been able to accept it. I wonder if you have tried to understand mine and not been able to accept it ? as long as we try to see where each of us is coming from its all we can ever ask. respectfully, Fr. Paul.
February 3, 2004 07:35 AM
Mr. Gendron,
In your last posting, on the last paragraph, again you say it:
"You must cease from trusting in works that cannot save you and put all your trust and confidence in the Lord Jesus Christ and His perfect, sufficient and finished sacrifice!"
And so, I repeat again, The bottom line of your one man Gendron religion is that:
As long as "a man repents and believes the Gospel", then he can disregard the 10 commandments and sin all he wants (that means he can fornicate, sodomize, abort babies, and murder people everyday for the rest of your life), because he is already saved.
That's the bottom line. All the rest of your anti-Catholic rhetoric is just smoke screen.
And that "bottom line Gendron religion" was never believed by any ancient Jew or by any ancient Christian Church. Man has the will and strength to live the Ten Commandments and emulate the example set by Jesus Christ (who was 100% man and 100% God). Your "already saved" is just an excuse for licentiousness and anarchy".
February 3, 2004 11:58 AM
Dreams and visions and hope to millions will come
from the movie THE PASSION. Never again will a movie have as much impact on people of all nations as this movie.
February 8, 2004 11:30 PM
I hope the movie is a blockbuster and leads many to faith in Christ.
February 10, 2004 02:06 AM
"For God hath not given us the Spirit of fear; but of power, and of Love and of a sound mind." II Timothy 1:7
February 10, 2004 11:46 PM
You don't know me, but I need to reach Mel Gibson, I don't know why I have been channeled through you, but I have. Argeson@yahoo.com
I'm not a nut, nor have I done anything like this, but I know things, please help me,
Argeson
P.S. My life has but a short time left here
February 11, 2004 08:02 PM
Mel Gibson said on national tv that he feels bad for the jews because they are going to "hell". I am Jewish and this movie is going to change everything for the jewish people. His father also never belive that the Holocaust happened. I think Mel Gibson should get his facts straight before he shows the world the wrong idea about history.
February 11, 2004 09:29 PM
Erica,
re: "Mel Gibson said on national TV"
Did you see the broadcast yourself, or did you hear about it?
re: "I am Jewish and this movie is going to change everything for the Jewish people."
Why do you think it's going to change anything? The movie is about what all New Testament readers have been reading and hearing in churches for 2000 years. What difference is a movie going to make?
re: "His father also never believe that the Holocaust happened"
Did you hear Gibson Sr. say that, or did someone tell you he said that? Only an invincible ignorant person would say that the Nazi-Jewish holocaust did not happen.
re: "I think Mel Gibson should get his facts straight before he shows the world the wrong idea about history."
No offense, but I do think that you should get your facts directly from the sources before you post hysterical comments that are unsubstantiated. I would expect more scholarly work from a Jew.
By the way, the first comment about that "Jews go to hell", is attributed to Jesus Christ who taught that in many passages in the New Testament. That's nothing new. Jews don't believe anything Jesus Christ said, the New Testament Bible included, so if Jews don't care what Jesus Christ said, why should they care about Mel Gibson when he repeats Jesus' teachings?
P.S. Please clarify if you are a cultural Jew, or other JINO, or are you a real Jew (strict Orthodox?
February 12, 2004 10:31 AM
Mr. Gibson, May you be blessed today and always.... I beleive your movie is a long, long, awaited wake -up call to many.
Thank You..... I can't wait to see the movie.
Pay no attention to all the controversy, that's what the devil dose and wants. There are so many people afraid to speak the Lords name in public, to Praise him, to Love him, to Trust him."God's Love cannot be explained, only experienced"
Remember!Satan trembles when he sees the weakest saint upon his knees. / You see, he knows that there is nothing more powerful then the Love of our Heavenly Father and the power of prayer.
Again, God Bless You Mr. Gibson and Thank You.
Carmen
February 16, 2004 02:57 AM
I can't wait to see this movie. Mel, God bless you, and may you continue to strive for what you believe in.
February 17, 2004 06:32 PM
I am loving the fact that Mel has decided to actually do a true movie from Hollywood about christ! This truly shows justice to all christians. How can he be blaming the jews for killing christ! He's not. What's wrong with the public is that everyone has tried to ban "Christ" out of society and Mel is coming out and doing what he believes in. People need to show a little more support! It's okay to show and teach our children about sex, drugs,and murder . . . but it's not okay to show them what Jesus went through for them? It's not okay to show them how much he loved us all, and for the church to even question this is obserd. I have been waiting for something like this to happen, and it's about time it did. This movie is going to change peoples lives, and that is what is wrong with the public. Everyone needs to grow up. No one killed him. He died for us. He sacraficed himself! I support Mel 100%!!!
February 18, 2004 10:29 AM
Faith is the last refuge for those who cannot deal with reality.
February 18, 2004 03:47 PM
What D. Alane doesn't realize is the corner he/she has painted him/herself in. I will refer to the writer as "him" since I don't know which gender the writer is.
I am assuming he is not a believer in the Christian faith, taking a superior mindset to those who choose to believe. D. Alane has expressed faith in the god of HIS choosing. You see, it takes a great deal of faith to NOT believe in the bleeding obvious. Any logical mind must deal with "first cause" of the Universe, acknowledging that something can not come from nothing.
D. Alane has placed his faith in nothingness. And THAT is the real example of the type of faith expressed by people who are unable to deal with reality.
I suggest D. Alane deal with the topic of faith on a more intellectual level.
February 19, 2004 06:59 AM
you can't argue religion. everyone has their on opinion and nobody will know until they day what the truth is. we should all respect each other and each others beliefs. i think ALMOST all religions would agree with this. we spend our lifes arguing over petty things. creating drama just to start a controversy so we can fulfill our own satisfaction. there are many movies out there that depict the life of christ and never has there been such an uproar. i am not saying one person or church is right or wrong. and i will never disrespect someone that believes different from me. we should all do the same. thanks for your time
February 19, 2004 08:52 AM
I say God bless Mr.Gibson for making such a realistic movie about the Lord Jesus. All of the movies in the past have sugar coated the death of Jesus. Mr.Gibson didn't. I think that is what this cruel world needs, is the reality of what happened, the LOVE that Christ showed us! You all have to ask yourself, Would I have gone through the torture, the pain and all the agony that the Lord went through for someone not even born yet? For the stranger beside me? Or the stranger next door? We all have to remind ourselves, we are human and very flawed. Noone is perfect, I will be the first to admit it. But we are forgiven, all you have to do is ask the LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. This is the reason for the "PASSION". Remember Jesus is not dead, he is very much ALIVE. Just call on his name and you will find out. He has never let me down! If you doubt, think of this. The everyday breeze you can feel it, but cant see it, you see its awesome power, thats how you know its there, right? Thank you and MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!!!
February 21, 2004 03:23 AM
Much has been said about the impact Mel's movie will have. I believe there will be many conversions among those who do not know Christ. Oremus! (translation: Let us pray - in Latin) Mostly, however, I believe there will be converstion in the hearts of those who already bear the name of Christ. If Christians understand, I mean really understand at a deeper level, what Our Lord suffered for us - the depth of His Sacrifice and what it really cost him to win for us the gift of grace - hopefully we will love Him more, and be willing, ourselves, to sacrifice all. Perhaps we will answer His call to holiness in ways that will impact this world as never before. As Mother Teresa constantly reminded us: each and every one of us is called to be a saint. And the crisis of our times is "a crisis of saints!" Most Christians are acclamated to the world, having little or no understanding that to follow Christ is not just to believe on Christ, but to live His way of life. Where our faith meets the world, we Christians founder. The non-believing world looks on and sees very little difference between us and the world. A world that has completely abandoned God & His commandments. Some examples: witness the constant barrage of our senses with the message of lust - through our movies, our t.v. commercials, our billboards, etc. Yet most of our young Christian women dress the same way promoting (unwittingly) that message. We watch "entertainment" - and allow our children to do the same - that glorifies what God calls sin and mocks what God calls holy. We pump it into our homes through the t.v. and give our children a steady diet of worldly thinking and worldy values which influence them more than the messages they hear at church. We kill - yes, by OUR APATHY - we kill - more people than Hitler ever dreamed of killing. I refer to our youngest brothers and sisters in Christ, the unborn babies. Christians in Nazi Germany went about their daily lives, ignoring what they knew was going on in those "camps," and we look back and say, "How did this HAPPEN? WHERE WERE THE CHRISTIANS?" Yet we get up in the morning, go about our day, while right down the street is an abortion clinic. We know that two people will walk in, but only one will walk out. And what do we do to defend those who cannot defend themselves? How many "Christians" will even speak out in a conversation in the work place in defense of the dignity and value of human life? Are not most of us more interested in our reputations? The martyrs shed their blood for Christ - yet we aren't willing to lay down our reputations because we fear rejection? And what of our own marital practices. Satan has the last laugh here, for even the majority of Christians who DO take a pro-life stand are using the birth control pill and IUD's which cause early abortions. In fact, the IUD is not even a "contraceptive" in that it does not prevent conception at all - it simply aborts the new life - that precious little one who is created by God in His own image and likeness. And the birth control pill acts both as a contraceptive and an abortafacient which means that at any time a Christian woman using this can be aborting her own child by the drugs she pumps into her body. My sister-in-law once asked me, before she was to give a talk in her evangelical church for pro-life Sunday, what I would say to a group of Christians regarding this issue if I could say only one thing. I told her I would tell them to be open to life. We cannot preach to the world to "let the children come" when we ourselves are not receiving them because of our contraception which says to God, "Okay, so you're the Lord of my life, but not in THIS AREA, God. If it is your choice, God, to use our gift of marriage to bring a new human being into your kingdom, forget it. We'll stop you with our pills and devices, our jams, jells, and latex. We say "no" to you! Hands off! You made a mistake and designed us to be fertile. But we know how to correct your mistake. It is totally OUR CHOICE whether to have children and how many to have. (Most of us get married having adopted the idea that two children is just right - one boy and one girl. Where did we get THAT idea from? The world! Certainly not the scriptures! And we don't even THINK to consult God. We are so far from Biblical thinking on this..the Bible says that children are a blessing! Can you imagine a Christian saying to God, "Lord, stop blessing me with health, and don't bless me with any more money..." Yet we definitely tell the Lord NOT TO BLESS US WITH CHILDREN! And so our witness to the world is ineffective! Back to my original point: to follow Christ is a way of life, never reducible to a system of beliefs. Faith must govern every action, every thought. How we vote. How we spend our money - especially when there are so many poor & starving and we have the means to help. How we dress. What we choose as "entertainment." Our openness in cooperating with God in bringing His children into this world. We cannot go to Church on Sunday and then live in the world and be "of it" every other day of the week, and we mustn't hold out to non-believers a truncated form of Christianity that says all you must do is BELIEVE in Christ's Sacrifice and accept it. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." To be saved we must love Christ. When faced with a choice between Jesus and the world, we must say, "Jesus, I choose You. It is You that I love. You I prefer." And our faithfulness must be faithfulness until death. For "he who perseveres unto the end will be saved." When evangelizing others we must help them to understand that this is a way of life they are choosing. And it means the cross. The early Christians were under no delusions. They knew that saying yes to Jesus meant a whole new way of life and possibly becoming a lion's lunch! Repentence: that wonderful word which in Greek is metanoia - a turning away from sin that is so complete that it means a change of one's deepest, innermost way of understanding.
When the world sees holiness in us, many will come to Christ. If Mel's movie can help us to become holier, if understanding His Sacrifice better can help us reassess how we live in this post-Christian culture that is having more influence over Christians at a practical level than Jesus and His Word, then miracles will abound. For this let us pray. Oremus!
February 21, 2004 05:24 PM
Very well said Rene. Every point is covered. People call themselves Christians, but they don't live any differently than "the world". I doubt if more than 1% of "christians" live as you have described a Christian should live. Most delude themselves. Truly in their case it is as the devil incarnate Lenin said "religion is the opiate of the masses". The masses delude themselves into thinking that they are Christians, when they are just like everyone else, with the exception that they read the bible.
Lust, improper dress, pornography, fornication, infidelity, adultery, contraception, abortion, cheating, lying and no love for neighbor, all the marks of the world, as lived by 99% of so-called "christians".
February 21, 2004 09:18 PM
THE TEACHINGS OF THE FATHERS, DOCTORS AND SAINTS OF THE CHURCH UPON
THE FINAL DESTINY OF MOST PEOPLE.
1) Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost for ever. (St. John Neuman)
2) It is certain that few are saved. (St. Augustine)
3) The majority of men shall not see God. (St. Julian the Martyr)
4) Those who are saved are in the minority. ( St. Thomas Aquinas)
5) The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love almighty God. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
6) So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved. (St. Philip Neri)
7) Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh .... With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)
8) Death bed conversions/repentance there are hardly any: Out of 100,000 sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely ONE will be saved. (St. Jerome)
9) The MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS GO TO HELL:
a) The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few not as many as ten went straight to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and THOSE CAST INTO BELL WERE NUMEROUS AS SNOWFLAKES in mid winter. (Bl. Anna Maria Taigi)
b) There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
c) The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was the symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above, .... It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
d) Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to heaven? Alas, my children we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter. (St. John Vianney)
10) MOST PRIESTS GO TO HELL:
a) I do not speak rashly, but how I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are more numerous. ( St. John Chrysostom)
b) Most priest are lost and few bishops are saved, not because of what they do, so much as what they fail to do. (St. John Chrysostom.)
c) Many religious go to Hell because they do not keep their vows. (St. Vincent Ferrer)
11) CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:
a) They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)
b) They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
c) St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)
12) How many inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to say is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with it's thousands of inhabitants, not 100 people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that! ( St. John Chrysostom the city was Antioch and its inhabitants were known to be in pursuit of comfort and the good things of things life.)
13) A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret It has been revealed that on the day St. Bernard their also died 79,999 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved. So out of 80,000 dead, 79,999 went to Hell!
14) In the great deluge in the days of Noah, all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark, In our days a deluge, not of water, but sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)
15) If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)
16) He who goes to Hell, goes of his own accord. Everyone who is damned, is damned because he wills his own damnation. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
17) THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD NOTHING ABOUT THE FAITH CAN ALSO GO TO HELL:
a) When such unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without the faith, but not because of their sin of unbelief. (St. Thomas Aquinas) d) No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)
18) OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE IS NO SALVATION:
a) No matter how praiseworthy his actions might seem, he who is separated from the Catholic Church will never enjoy eternal life (Pope Gregory XVI)
b) O ye atheists who do not believe in God, what fools you are! But if you do believe there is a God, you must also believe there is a true religion. And if not the Roman Catholic, which is it? Perhaps that of the pagans who admit many gods, thus they deny them all. Perhaps that of Mohammed, a religion invented by an impostor and framed for beasts rather than humans. Perhaps that of the Jews who had the true faith at one time but, because they rejected their redeemer, lost their faith, their country, their everything. Perhaps that of the heretics who, separating themselves from our Church, have confused all revealed dogmas in such a way that the belief of one heretic is contrary to that of his neighbor. 0 holy faith! Enlighten all those poor blind creatures who run to eternal perdition! (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
February 21, 2004 10:40 PM
True, Mr. Curve...
But let us remember it is not our words or deeds that grant us entrance to heaven. It is only by depending upon the crucified and risen Christ, who paid the full penalty for our sins, and accepting his blood sacrifice as being pleasing to God the Father, that we are given the free gift of eternal salvation, which no man can grant nor take away.
February 22, 2004 02:44 PM
AUTHOR: chris
EMAIL: kkchris986@yahoo.com
IP: 24.184.96.157
URL:
DATE: 02/22/2004 02:44:48 PM
February 22, 2004 07:49 PM
In what good things done by Mel Gibson is always been an eyesore of some. Who at this time never believe about Jesus Christ the Son of God.I believe they just question only their belief but not faith. I like this movie. It is good to us Christian to reflect how much Love of God to us through His Son Jesus Christ. The Passion will always draw us close to Him. Thank you Mel Gibson God uses you as an instrument to spread the Good New. Praise God always now and forever.
February 23, 2004 05:56 AM
AUTHOR: Chris
EMAIL: kkchris986@yahoo.com <kkchris986@yahoo.com
IP: 24.184.96.157
URL:
DATE: 02/23/2004 05:56:59 AM
February 23, 2004 03:41 PM
Praise be to God! Praise be to God!! The time is at hand. He is coming soon! Listen and listen well those who would harden you hearts to the truth. There will be much suffering and gnashing of teeth in those days. You have been given the light. You will see the Truth. You will reject it, and run back to the darkness. Do not attempt to plead yourselves into grace at that time, for the grace that is sufficient to cover your sins will have proclaimed His own, and you will be found wanting. Take heed of the words of Jesus in love. Believe on His name, Repent and turn away from your transgressions. Believe in the loving sacrifice and the resurrection of the Living God, Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. He that was and is Our Sacrifice desires you to come to Him. He is Love and Light. No one who seeks His Grace is turned away. Love in Jesus Christ the Messiah, the One Who Bore All our Sins. The One who suffered and died at the hands of ALL of humankind, and represents ALL of humankind at the foot of God our Father as atonement for our transgressions, be blessed by our worship and love. The One who at three days rose from the dead and conquered satan, death, hell and the grave so that we will, in believing in Him and choosing His sacrifice, live for eternity with Him. The Jews are favored, and loved very much. God has made no secret that they are His chosen people. As a Christian, I love them, too. Anyone that God loves, I love. I have a very special place in my heart for Jews. I would love to see them finally realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the one God promised. I am afraid it will take the return of Christ for His own to finally make you believe. In the meantime, love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as you love yourself! Praise be to Jesus, the Worthy Lamb of God! Peace be to you brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, our hero!!!!!! Love, Stacy
February 23, 2004 05:36 PM
i am the happies person knowing that the world finally i focusing in Jesus for lent time, not even berbie's divorse was able to stop this. Mell may God bless you for this movie. I was expecting for something to happen that all people were able to witness, God has his ways, this is fantastic. Thank you Jesus
February 25, 2004 02:25 PM
In response to the respondee of Mr. Curves comments( that's a mouthful).
True, Mr. Curve...
But let us remember it is not our words or deeds that grant us entrance to heaven. It is only by depending upon the crucified and risen Christ, who paid the full penalty for our sins, and accepting his blood sacrifice as being pleasing to God the Father, that we are given the free gift of eternal salvation, which no man can grant nor take away.
_____________________________________________
Faith and works go hand in hand and one cannot exist without the other. Both in tandem are a requirement of our salvation.
In the Final Judgement passage from Matthew whilst God is judging the good from the bad to Heaven or Hell he askes "what they did" not what they believed. " When I was naked did you cloth me? When I was hungry did you feed me? etc. etc.
Faith alone isn't enough. You have to walk the walk of Christ. For who has more faith in God's existence that Lucifer............. yet he is no longer in heaven and by his actions lost his salvation.
February 25, 2004 07:09 PM
Dear Pace,
I can see by your comments that you don't agree with the showing of this great masterpiece.I can say that no one has a complete understanding of the Holy Scriptures. I would have to say that there are many mysterious not loopholes, in God's Word that we sinnful mortals cannot understand.
There are things in the Holy Scriptures that will be revealed and understood in due time. The Bible is God's blueprint for us to follow in this life. In the Gospel according to John it says:"In the beginning was the Word and Word was with God and the Word was God."
That tells me that God's Word has always been and that the Word itself is God. So how can we in our finite minds try to understand all of what God has to say to us? Now to the unbeliever, that has no meaning whatsoever. But to those who believe, it shows us who God really is. To those who not believe it is foolishness and there is no understanding in spiritual discernment.
The human mind cannot understand abolutes. And by absolutes I mean that you would have to accept by faith what is written in all four Gospels. Take for example, four people who have to describe a certain character. One person is excited with the man's tie. Another man is facinated with the man's shoes. And the other two see everything about that man as the ideal character in a book. God talks to us through his Word. You must have an open mind and an open heart to understand God's Word. As you grow in reading God's Word you will understand more. Soon all four perspective of the Gospels will fall into play.
It is revealed in the four Gospels for us to understand the mind of God. God's mind is everywhere. God is omniscent, omnipotent and omnipresent. If He wants to give four accounts of Christs ministry , death and resurrection from different perspectives, so be it! After all, He is God and He is sovereign.
I have run out of time and if you care to dialog some more write back.
Henry
February 25, 2004 07:58 PM
Well said Jeff, to be “saved” one must have the true Faith and keep the commandments (deeds/works).
There are two errors made by people who rely on their own ideas or interpretation of scripture to “save their souls from eternal perdition”.
One of the errors is “faith without works”, they say that you can sin all you want because you’re already saved, and you really have no control over yourself. This can be easily disproved every day by all those who do have control over themselves.
The other error is that it is only conduct that counts, and that creeds do not matter; that behavior and not belief is what can save. That is, works without faith is the way. This is the more common error of today. An example would be the line “Oh, the Dalai Lama is so good, God could never condemn him. There are so many “good” and “sincere” people of all faiths that die every day and don’t believe in Jesus Christ, they are also saved”.
The Catholic Church opposes both these extremes. Faith and works are necessary; belief and behavior are required; the heart must be right, but it must not run away with the head. By all means let us strive after Christian conduct; but we must not make that an excuse for denying the Christian creed.
February 25, 2004 08:51 PM
Nonsense. Lumping our works in with the finished work of Christ on the cross spits in the very face of what Jesus came to do. How arrogant of people to think they contribute ANYTHING to their own Salvation. Actually, we do bring ONE thing to our salvation. Our sin.
As for those who would use their forgiveness as a license to sin, I believe Paul addressed this in Romans. Nothing is more useless to the Kingdom of God than one of His children who refuses to be obedient. "Faith without works is dead" refers to the notion that a child of God is saved for a purpose. If he chooses to not live for that purpose, he is being disobedient and his life will bear no fruit.
Sola Fida!
February 26, 2004 11:20 AM
Dear Mr Mel Gibson,
(I saw your movie opening night in MA Lent Wednesday)
I hope that you will be the one to read this note.
Thank you so much for a very deep movie. This movie truly showed the pains and suffering that Jesus went through. I know of other movies but they did not cover like yours. My God, it felt like I was there and felt his pain. Jesus truly went through alot of pain and suffering but he stood his ground. For those of us who believe in Jesus, this movie will surely make you cry and reflect deeply on our christain lives. For those who are seeking to know of Jesus I recommend that you read the Bible (New Testament) so that you can surely understand and appreciate the movie. This movie came at the perfect time for the lent season and for my family personally because of what we have been going through for sometime and recently pending, its pretty sad.
Thank you again Mr Gibson and may God continue to bless you and your family always.
I have to say in all the years and money spent in going to the theatres this was money well spent to see this movie. For those who have not gone yet, don't forget your tissues. And its okay to cry.
Jesus love & peace,
L.R.
February 26, 2004 03:54 PM
Mel Gibson is an Anti Semite...
Nothing against the film.
February 26, 2004 05:23 PM
Our friend, "Jew", is sadly mistaken, and embarrasment to those of my heritage. There is absolutely NO evidence that Mel Gibson is anti-semitic. (Though his father appears to be...) The account in The Passion is faithful to the gospel accounts. The Jews in power at the time of Jesus were scumbags. Christ called them out for sin and they didn't like it, so they had Him killed. (As predicted in the JEWISH Scriptures.. see the book of Isaiah)
You don't have a problem with Mel. You have a problem with Jesus. That's no surprise.
February 26, 2004 05:41 PM
DEAR mel gibson,
i hope you read this because i just wanted to let you know how impresed i am with this film. it truly touched the hearts of many as well as mine. Until yourmovie i was confused and unable to understand what really happened. that movie set everything straight. after church me and my family went to see your movie and there was a line so long everyone was sitting in aisles. Congratulations and your movie will make millions. if you dont win an award i wil be flabbergasted.
Sincerely, AMAnda
February 26, 2004 08:40 PM
Reply to Joel February 25, 2004 08:51 PM,
You say “Nonsense”. What you are saying is that what the Catholic Church has always taught and scripture is very clear on, "that both faith and works are required for salvation" does not make sense to you.
Now, to the rest of the world, what does not make sense is your idea that
"As long as a man repents and believes the Gospel, then he can disregard the 10 commandments and sin all he wants (that means he can fornicate, sodomize, abort babies, and murder people everyday for the rest of your life), because he is already saved. That's what is none sense and contradicted by scripture, so many times it's ridiculous. All decent Protestants have gotten rid of that principle. Faith alone without a good moral life is not enough. Everyone is disgusted with the man who professes a Christian life yet who lives an evil life, and no one really believes that to be the road to salvation.
In reality, what spits in the face of Christ, what is arrogant, is for someone to say “he can disregard the 10 commandments and sin all he wants (that means he can fornicate, sodomize, abort babies, and murder people everyday for the rest of your life), because he is already saved!
As far as good behavior/deeds/works:
The Catholic Church teaches that good works prompted by purely natural motives cannot save a man. Thus St. Paul says, "If I should give all my goods to feed the poor, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." (1 Cor. 13:3). Yet good works inspired by faith in Christ and love for Christ are necessary. "By works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 11:24). Indeed the "Son of man will come in the glory of His Father . . . and then will He render to every man according to his works." (Mat 16:27).
It is God who gives us the grace to perform whatever good we do, it is not of ourselves. However, he grants us the freedom/liberty to act upon it or reject it. A person who lives a sinful life is manifesting the absence of God’s grace. For if he truly had the Faith he would not be acting as he does. All good we do comes from God, all the evil we do comes from us and our rejection of God’s grace. This has always been the Catholic teaching and our interpretation of scripture. It is reasonable and explains the contradicting passages in scripture concerning faith and works.
Your explanation that “"As long as a man repents and believes the Gospel, then he can disregard the 10 commandments and sin all he wants (that means he can fornicate, sodomize, abort babies, and murder people everyday for the rest of your life), because he is already saved” makes no sense. It is an insult to the sermons and example set by Christ
February 26, 2004 11:48 PM
You are entitled to your opinion. While you are quite sincere and passionate, I believe you are sincerely wrong on this issue. I could debate this Scripturally, but I see no point. I feel sorry that you have no assurance of Salvation. Who knows what sin in your life will tip the scales so that you may not get in to heaven. As for me, the peace of God that passes understanding pervades my soul in knowing that there is nothing I can do that would ever separate me from the love of God. I am sealed with His Holy Spirit until that final day. It sounds to me like this is your problem, not mine.
Joel
February 27, 2004 12:31 PM
Reply to Joel,
That is not my opinion.What you should have said is "the Catholic church is entitled to it's opinion".
What I wrote is the teaching of the only Christian Church that existed in 1500, and the only one that existed in 100 AD. The teaching has been the same since the time of Apostles, and before the New Testament Bible even existed. Same teaching for all Catholics then and now. Truth does not change. A Catholic’s personal ideas are worthless if they conflict with the 1900+ year unanimous agreement of the Catholic Church
Your ideas on the other hand are "your opinion". The interpretation of one person.
A Catholic believes the same teaching of ALL Catholics since the time of the apostles. Not because we are robots, but because it is reasonable, and has no holes, or in the case of mysteries, it is the best explanation.
P.S. - Only a Greek Orthodox could say his church existed in the 9th century.
They too teach the same as the Catholic Church concerning faith and works, the same as I explained yesterday.
February 27, 2004 05:27 PM
I've only just returned home from seeing "The Passion Of The Christ" and I can honestly say words failed me. Being a Christian and growing up in the Baptist church you think you know all about His death and resurection. I thought I knew, but when I watched that movie....I FELT it! It was a spiritualy monumental moment in my relationship with Christ. For the first time I saw what He went through and it's something I pray to God I never forget. It's made being a Christian much more personal and rewarding. I'm grateful Mr. Gibson had the courage to make this movie and bring a blessing into my life.
February 28, 2004 02:25 PM
I recently went to see "The Passion" and there wasn't a thing i could say but"Oh Lord!".I could actually feel the pain of The Christ .It is such a powerfull movie showing the absolutely truth about the death of The Christ.I am myself a catholic and i have always been taught about the death of jesus since i was a little girl.However,this movie depicts accurately the last hours of Jesus and it shows you who he really was.I do think that Mr.Gibson 's work is a master piece which i think he is blessed for.When i went to see "The passion",i was thrilled to see so many people especially young people of different ethnicities.It shows that people are getting more and more open-minded on sensitive subjects such as this one portraiting the death of Jesus and his message to all.The ones denying Jesus or even judging negatively this movie are simply affraid to finally see the real and sad truth about our savior Jesus or cannot admit it some reasons.Just accept it because no-one can erase the truth.Please leave Mel Gibson alone.He is not an anti-semitic and he did a spectacular action which should of been done a long time ago.I thank you Mr.Gibson for the wonderful gift you gave to the world.
Blessed be !
PS:I think that governor Pilatus should have his name cleaned and be recognize as a martyr by The Vatican because for too long people have put him responsible for Jesus' death when we all know that it wasn't his willing.
February 28, 2004 10:20 PM
May the lord bless and keep you,may He shine His continence on uou and your family, Mr Mel Gibson!ams5296@yahoo.com
February 29, 2004 07:42 PM
Following News came out this afternoon:
"Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" ascended to number-one at the box office, earning more than the rest of the top 10 films combined, preliminary figures showed.
The controversial drama of the final hours of Jesus Christ is expected to gross 76.2 million dollars this weekend -- a record for a February opening, according to Encino-based Exhibitor Relations.
The movie has grossed about 117.5 million dollars since it opened Wednesday. Gibson reportedly invested 25 million dollars of his own money."
Now, they said Gibson was crazy for jeopardizing his career for making this movie for the limited audience that would go to see it. LIMITED? NOT!
For Catholics, Fridays have always been the second most important day of the week because it was the day Christ was crucified. This is the reason for abstaining from eating meat (a small sacrifice). Some people thought it was that Catholics had to eat fish of Fridays, however, the disciplinary law called for abstaining form eating meat. So, you didn't have to eat fish, you could eat pasta, cheese, eggs, or whatever vegetarians eat. Today, only traditionalists Catholics abstain from meat.
Nuclcurve is a traditionalist. Did I mention that Mel Gibson is also a traditionalist?
February 29, 2004 07:53 PM
Nuc pressed "Post" to soon. I'll continue:
I have a recommendation for Catholics:
During these 40 days of Lent (which started Ash Wednesday, Feb 18th, and the reason for Passion opening day was the 18th, go see the passion every Friday, not only will it etch a permanent meditation for doing the Sorrowful Mystery's of the Rosary, but it will also help to propel this movie to the position of the biggest ever box office hit!
Lets show the liberal media what the real world wants to see.
February 29, 2004 08:17 PM
A Catholic observation:
Mel Gibson called the movie "The Passion of the Christ", because Christ means the Messiah. So, this was “The Passion of The Savior/Messiah of Humanity”.
Always note that the non-believer will refer to Christ, simply as "Jesus". They will avoid as much as they can to say "Jesus Christ" and even less "The Christ". This is why Gibson changed the title of the movie from "The Passion", to "The Passion of The Christ"
The secular world will call Him just "Jesus", because they consider that if He ever existed at all, He was only a man, a great prophet at best, like Buddha, or Mohammed. Something to keep in mind next time you hear the name of Jesus uttered by the liberal atheistic media.
Always try to remember to say Jesus Christ God, and capitalize the He/Him when it refers to God.
March 1, 2004 09:39 AM
I saw the movie and it was GREAT! There is alot of detail in the movie, like even how Jesus pupils dilate when he dies on the cross. I found no anti-semetism in the movie, if you have ever read the bible it is clear that it was not the Jewish people but the Jewish leaders who wanted Jesus dead. Except for a little and I mean a little catholic diversion (ie women giving Christ shroud to clean his face of blood)the movie for the most part is right on with the bible.
March 2, 2004 01:00 AM
Why is it that I keep seeing this as Mel's controversial film. This is NOT about Mel. God has caused the controversy. The talking heads who condemn Mel condemn the messenger when in fact their problem exists with the Author. There is NO middle ground concerning Jesus. HE is not JUST a wise man, although HE had far superior wisdom than any man. He is not JUST a prophet, yet he spoke prophecy. He was not JUST a good man, yet his goodness was beyond reproach and impeccable. He cannot be one of these, He is all of these. He is, as He said; the Son of the Living God. Anything less than this makes Him a liar. You either accept Him by this fact, or reject him. The message of the cross is the great equalizer. We are ALL guilty, and this movie puts the guilt squarely in our face.
Grace, hope and His incomprehensible love. It's not about what we did to Him, it's about what He did for us.
March 2, 2004 07:25 AM
This is just another Jesus movie! Just a lot more gory than its predicessors. When is someone going to make a realistic movie about Jesus. The Bible says in Isaiah 53 that Jesus was a man of sorrows and of afliction, a man aquainted with grief. It also says that he was not beautiful to look at. Why do we always get these 6 ft. tall good looking guys to portray Jesus. Archeoligical evidence shows that most people in Jesus day were average 5 ft in height. Lets stop fantasising about what Jesus looked like and did and get to the real meat of who he was and what he did. To me seeing a realistic Jesus would be more interesting than seeing some model/actor portray him. Also Jesus would not have had long hippy hair because the Bible says in Mathew I believe, that is was a disgrace for a man to have long hair. So in my opinion the artistic version of Jesus gets a yawn. Lets see the real thing. After all everyone in the general public is not that gullable.
March 2, 2004 07:27 AM
This movie is like the Pied Piper leading the lemming to their death. It is a misleading and seductive movie and I would have to say that it is the work of the antichrist. I say that because when you see this movie and the effect that it has upon mankind, you will also see an analogy of the deception which will happen in the endtime scenario. Mankind will be seduced and reduced to lemming ready for the slaughter. This movie scares the hell out of me because of the seductive and controlling nature of it. This movie is not about the death of Christ, this movie is about the death of mankind at the hands of the antichrist in the endtime scenario. I would advise you to be very careful in regard to this movie. One other thing, the three main female leads in the movie are three of the top porn stars in Italy, especially Monica Bollucci. Forgive me but I think I mispelled her last name but you get the message.
Take care,
Gordon
March 2, 2004 09:52 AM
And the cuckoo award for today is shared by Gordon and Dee Connoly, both who have completely missed the point of the film and yet managed to take up space on my blog.
March 3, 2004 08:53 AM
Mr. Joel
Yes I'm cukoo! For Christ that is! What exactly is the point of Mel Gibson's movie? Do we in the general public need a picture drawn for us as to what Christ went through? We can read, you know. Anyone who reads or even sees some of the less gory "Jesus movies" has to wonder how any human being can do such a thing to another and how Jesus could of possibly withstood it all. We get the point! I simply think we need to be more realistic about who Jesus really was. He was a Jewish rabbi not a hippy. He was not a good looking man and he was not a sissy doeted over by his mother. Come on get real! We all need to stop living in the fantacy world created by HolleyWood and religious zellots and get real. Think a little bit for yourselves and explore the evidence which is in the Bible and is within our scientific grasp today. We have more information available today than ever in the history of man. I think people will be comforted by the fact that Jesus was truely a man and a man as a man truely is. Forget that sissy stuff he was a real man. In fact he is the son of God seated on the right hand of the Father today. Stop feeling sorry for him, he came to redeem mankind and he accomplished that. Praise God!
March 3, 2004 01:24 PM
I saw the Passion of Christ and I think its a wonderful a beautiful film, Mel your the best!!!
March 3, 2004 06:12 PM
Sure it might have been better and more accurate with Jesus a little shorter, and with a trim, and a little uglier. I don't know how you know one way or another whether Mary doted over Jesus or not. I don't think makes him a sissy man. I heard that some think (based on translating the original text,)that he might have not been a carpenter, but a stone mason. An even manlier job! But in the end this is Mel Gibson's vision of the story, based alot on scripture and enhanced with scriptually based references and concepts and a little Hollywood. The portrayal of the extent that Jesus suffered with the whippings and beatings I don't think has ever been accurately portrayed in any other movie. Even the crucifixtion was more graphic and realistic than previous movies. I actually thought he could have gone into that even further. But I see this movie as an object that furthers our understanding of Jesus and the Gospels. Like for instance the scene where Jesus restores the guy's ear. The Bible doesn't tell us how he reacted, but if you think about it, he must have been stunned. I thought that was very well done and frankly, I never thought of it in that way. Some people have maybe been brought up going to Sunday school and reading these stories but now they've actually understood them better through this movie. I don't think this movie was the end all, be all version. I think there will be a problem with any version. We'll get the whole story when we get there. "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face."
March 4, 2004 08:32 AM
Well, just like Gordon said above, We ourselves are like sheep being led to the sladder. We will believe anything as long as it is nicely packaged by Hollywood and people like the beautiful Mel Gibson. I think "real Jewish" scholers are all sitting back laughing at us silly gooshy Americans. Do we think our Lord had to be beautiful to get his message across? Look at one of the most famous American presidents, Abraham Lincoln. He was not pretty. It was what he said that made people stop and listen and look what happened to him. I think even with the graffic violence of this Jesus movie it still comes off as a fashion show. I'm frankly ashamed of being a part of this mob of sobbing hypocrits. I think we are going to goosh ourselves right into the anti-Christs hands. Watch out people!! P.S. Read Revelation and stay alert!
March 4, 2004 11:54 AM
I am finding it hard to take you seriously, Dee. This is a joke, right? You are pulling our leg, right? Haha! Good one!
Now, assuming that you are serious, which is beyond the realm of any comprehension, allow me to make two points.
1) More people are talking about Jesus Christ right now than I can ever recall during my lifetime. Where the Gospel is preached, the Spirit of God is at work in the hearts of people, drawing them to Him. I refer you to Mark 3:23-27
"So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house."
2) In spite of this, you are ranting on how Jesus was "pretty" in the movie? If that is what you walked away with from the film, perhaps you should test yourself to see if Christ is indeed within you. If ANYTHING would concern me about the movie, it would be the wacky stuff Mel included that was derived from Sister Anne Catherine Emmerich's writings, where she claimed to have had a vision of Christ's passion. Even THIS stuff I could overlook and compartmentalize as "artistic license". The GOOD NEWS (Gospel) was presented in a very clear form. And THAT is the key. Whether or not Jesus was 5-foot tall or 6-foot tall, blond haired, dark haired, blue eyes, ugly or pretty is of no consequence to the message of the movie, or of the Gospels.
I point you to this verse.
Matthew 23:24 - "You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel."
Hows that camel going down, Dee?
March 4, 2004 09:00 PM
Yes I'm serious and no I've never had camel but I hear it's pretty tasty. The anti messiah will be seated in the temple pretending to be the messiah. What does the anti messiah want people to think?? That's right he wants them to think he is the messiah. So how can a house be divided amoungst it's self?? Easy, because it is only pretending to be what it says it is. Pretty simple. Now I've got bigger fish to fry so I'll be on my way.
March 4, 2004 10:13 PM
Oh, I understand now. "Pretty" Jesus is divided against "plain homely" Jesus. Ya, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for clarifying, Dee. Go ye, and fry fish!
March 5, 2004 12:38 AM
The Passion of the Christ is THE BEST movie I have EVER seen. I am a Born Again Christian and this movie has made part of the bible come alive to me and the Christian friends i went to see it with. Thankyou Mr Gibson for making this film.
Thankyou Lord for dying on that cross for me to take the penalty for my sins and those of the world. May this film bring glory and honour to You. Amen.
March 5, 2004 08:44 AM
You sound very angry Joel. I'm sorry that you cannot handle what I'm saying. People need things sugarcoated, that makes it easier for them to swallow. You might like you Jesus all Glossed up but I prefer the real thing. I'm sure he will be beautiful when he returns as it states in the Revelation. I can't wait.
March 5, 2004 12:04 PM
Angry? No, I think you are nuts and dangerous to people who would seek out Christ, regardless of what he looks like.
March 5, 2004 07:28 PM
There you go again sounding very angry. Maybe it's because what I'm saying is true. I'm not saying he has to look a certain way. I'm saying we need to stop creating idols I believe that is somewhere in the commandemtns of God. When you stop creating idols it makes the real thing even better.
Joel, maybe you could you some anger management classes.
March 5, 2004 07:39 PM
You are stuck on this anger thing, aren't you? If it makes you feel better, I give you permission to embrace it.
Now, on the real issues... Do you think people are too stupid to differentiate between the real Jesus Christ and the actor portraying Him in the film? Do you really think people will be led to worship the actor instead of the risen Savior?
You say, "I'm not saying he has to look a certain way".
But in an earlier comment you said, "Do we think our Lord had to be beautiful to get his message across? Look at one of the most famous American presidents, Abraham Lincoln. He was not pretty. It was what he said that made people stop and listen and look what happened to him."
The contradiction in your words is glaring, but I am trying to get to the crux of your problem.
Are you displeased that Jesus didn't look like the REAL Jesus (which you have never seen face to face so I don't know how you could possibly know), or are you just unhappy that a movie like this was made in the first place?
March 6, 2004 08:55 AM
I'm just tired of old cliche's always popping up. I'm probably not the only one out here that is bored stiff with it all. It's no wonder hard pressed ideolist doen't join the Christian movement because they are all probably like me who think being idealistic doesn't have to be separated from being realistic. I can't stand the candy coated "for the public" version of Jesus. Maybe he was good looking, tall and as white as the driven snow, and in case you are wondering I fit that discription for the most part. Or maybe he was short, dark and homely looking. I don't know for sure but the archeological evidence shows that people in that area and time were average 5ft tall and dark complected because there wasn't the Northern Europeon factor yet. And Isaiah 53 describes Jesus pretty well I would say. No it doesn't matter what he looked like but I'm for one not going to watch some hollywood concoction that leaves out so many inportant things and adds what it pleases because that's what they (Mel) believes. I for one don't buy it. I'm keeping my eight bucks!
March 6, 2004 12:54 PM
I'm sorry the movie isn't a blessing to you, Dee. Thankfully, it is blessing countless millions who walk away with the message of the Gospel rather than a trivial concern over Jesus' skin color, height or hair length. Man looks at the outside. God looks at the heart. Peace to you.
March 6, 2004 08:51 PM
After seening this movie, all I want to do (being a God-fearing Christian already), is meet Mel Gibson and just hug him forever----yes, it is overly violent, but WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET PEOPLE'S ATTENTION THIS DAY, ANYWAY? The time is now, and there is great conflict between good and evil---the battle is raging, and this movie is the catalyst----God gave everyone of us a "knowing" inside that we just "didn't happen, or evolve". The truth is ALWAYS hard to bear, if you don't know it already, and anyone who is slashing away at this movie is trying to justify their unbelief, or their light-weight, non-commital belief in Jesus Christ, the Son of God!!
Our life here is momentary---eternity is FOREVER---we must be prepared, and this movie is the greatest evangical movement we have seen in our lives---God Bless you Mel Gibson---we respect you and we love you for this unbelievable effort!!
March 6, 2004 09:05 PM
hello mr gibson,
my husband and i went to see the movie the passion of Christ, breath taking i thought i was an execllent movie those that don't know Christ, gets a glemce of what He Jesus went through for us, no human could indure that, i'm still learning to forgive and pray for those who wrong me. i repented and fell in love with the true Jesus all over again. the movie reminded me that now is the time to repent now is the day of salvation everything has been paid through His Jesus blood for you and for me. i thank the Lord for you hearing and obeying, i thank the Lord that He gave you the courage to endure what He knew man would say, with the Lord on your side mr gibson all you will have is victories bb. keep your eyes on the true and living Savior Jesus Christ ! bb tia
March 7, 2004 09:40 AM
Is this movie really blessing people or it deceaving them? I wouldn't trust anything that comes from a man who belongs to a religion that is built on lies. You know what religion I'm talking about. For Gods sakes, they want to go back to the way things were before their second vatican council, where the mass is read in Latin so nobody can understand them. It took protastants five hundred years to turn things around in Christiandom and they want to return to a language "nobody" today understands. Now that is rediculous. I still think people are so gullable and just like it says in Revelation many will be deceived. The anti-Christ will not have a hard time thats for sure.
March 7, 2004 04:59 PM
The reason people are afraid of the movie is that they don't want to accept the fact that sacrifice is a part of living God's way. Watching HDTV, surfing the internet, reading People Magazine is what Americans prefer to do.
Embrace suffering. Turn everything over to God and follow him. The first commandment is about faith, hope and charity. How are you doing on charity? When you bought that new TV you really didn't need did you make an equal donation to the local food pantry?
Love your neighbor as yourself or is it just love yourself for you?
The Catholic Church is the only way to the Truth. It is the Church started by Christ. ALL (emphasis on ALL) other Churches were started by human beings with their faults and egos.
I don't recall reading in the bible where everyone was free to start their own Church based on their own beliefs when their lives weren't fulfilled by the Catholic Church. If someone could point that verse out to me I would appreciate it. I have been searching for years!
It is also the only Church that has a sacrament of forgiveness. All other Churches state forgiveness is not necessary, just believe. Again, I can't find that verse in the bible either.
There is no debate on the Catholic Church being the way to the Truth.
March 7, 2004 08:53 PM
Bob, there is actually a GREAT deal of debate over your statement that the Catholic church is the way to all truth.
Jesus said, "I am the way, THE TRUTH and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me"
The early Catholic church (up to 400 AD) and today's Protestants believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is not an organization. Instead, the belief is that born-again believers, those sealed with God's Holy Spirit, is the Body of Christ, aka, The Church.
Blessings,
Joel
March 8, 2004 07:53 AM
Joel,
Your debate with Dee is an example of the futility of Protestantism. You are trying to convince her of your interpretation of the bible, as if you possess all truth, and she is trying to convince you because she believes she has the truth. In reality both of you have your own religion based on what you've heard from others and blended to your convenience. Tomorrow you'll learn something else and change your opinions, every day in change.
If Dee or you were Catholics and you tried to convince me of being in error, I would simply prove to you how what-you-believe, has never been believed by the Church. Not believed 50, 250,1000, 1500 years ago. Therefore it is not Catholic (which means universal in Greek). It is not universal in time (it was never believed) and space (not believed all over the world).
Since both of you are basically just individualists, there is no way you will convince each other. That's why there are as many "Protestant" churches as there are Protestants. You both call yourselves "Protestants", however, like all Protestantism, when you dig down, you don't agree on enough to form more than a group of one.
March 8, 2004 08:58 AM
Joel,
You said: there is actually a GREAT deal of debate over your statement that the Catholic Church is the way to all truth. Jesus said, "I am the way, THE TRUTH and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me"
I ask you:
How do you know that Jesus said that? You answer, “why, the New Testament Bible of course”.
So, the way to the truth is really the NT bible, not Jesus.
But,Who wrote the bible? You answer, “Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul etc”.
So, the way to the truth is now Mathew, Mark...etc.
You answer, no, it's the Holy Ghost.
I ask, The Holy Ghost wrote the NT Bible? Where's it say that? You answer, "in the bible". So, we're back at the bible again!
This is Heinz 57! Protestants take a little from everybody, mix it up and come up with their own religion.
Facts:
Protestants take the NT Bible which was put together by the Catholic Church in the 390's at a Council of Bishops. The council threw-out over 120 books that could have been in the NT Bible.
Protestants take for fact who wrote the individual scriptures, when nowhere in the NT does it say, "I Matthew, Mark, John wrote this scripture". Or the Holy Ghost put together all these separate NT writings into this NT Bible.
Protestants say that they go by the bible only, howeve