No, animals do not have the same rights as people.

Ooops - just missed that last one. How can you say that animals do not have the same rights? Why not? How cruel and hard-hearted that sounds. They deserve to live just as much as we do. To think otherwise is quite arrogant of the human race. And please spare me the "God created animals for man to have dominion over them" crap. That is just bunk. Maybe one day, another species of animal will evolve and wipe us out, since we won't have the same "rights" as them. Believe me, humans are capable of some wonderful things, but so are animals. To kill an animal can sometimes be just as despicable as killing a human, if not done for food or necessary clothing.

Madness, you say. Okay, Then I guess if someone came along and killed your pet you shoud not shed a tear, since its life is obviously meaningless when compared to a person. The person that did it should not receive an ounce of punishment. Look, just because our brains are bigger and we can think on a higher level DOES NOT give us right over the planet to do as we please. WE are overpopulated and destroying many parts of the world because of our own want and way of life. So many animals have become extinct because of US. But that is okay, I guess, because animals are soooo below us. This is one of the big reasons that I can not stand many religions. In this way, Christianity or any religion that see things this way is ARROGANT. If there is a God, if he condones such things, then he is obviously not as good as you think. Believe me, nothing in this world is easy, and no choice is easy. Sure, I see many problems with the value of life. Each individual life is an individual case and unique in the way it should be dealt with. that is why issues of euthanisia are so difficult. But YOU are the one claiming that "life is so important, life is so meaningful" EXCEPT when it comes to animals. Hmmm, do I hear the hypocrite bell ringing? I know many people who would disagree, because an animal gave them much more UNCONDITIONAL LOVE than a person EVER did. And yet you say this is madness? Any God who believes that man can do as he wishes with any other living being on the planet and call that "sanctity of life" HAHAHAHA is CRUEL and UNJUST and I want NO PART of beliving in such an enitity. Jesus promoted love of everybody - except Hindus, Moslems, American Indians, Buddhists, Taoists, etc. (who are all going to Hell for beling unbelievers (or Infidels, as another religion puts it), and he also excludes love geighs, lesbefriends, and for, oh yeah, now animals. Being agnostic is great, cause I want no part of something that cruel and hypocritical.

I think this may be my last post for awhile, since I have much to do (and the crowd rejoices-yea) Just wanted to clarify a few tidbits. I apologize for any harsh sounding statements made in previous entries, it just raised my hackles the way you referred to animals as such underlings to people and excused and justified it with the Bible, as so many do to justify atrocities. The reason I have such points of view is this - you rant on and on about the sanctity of life and how horrible people are who even remotely consider the idea of abortion or euthanasia, even in the most extreme of circumstances, yet you go and draw out exceptions to the rule of the "value of a life" when it is the LIFE of an animal in question. Yet you would have anger and hatred to anyone who even considered an abortion. You see, I do not feel my opinions or thoughts are not that much better than anyone else's. Everyone is an individual and there is no ABSOLUTE TRUTH. I think people are people and do their best to make the best decisions they can under difficult circumstances. Sure they make mistakes, but they usually regret those mistakes and try harder to make the better choice next time. Yes, there should be standards of living, but people who make hard choices with the best of intentions should not be punished when they have at least tried their best to make the right decision. I can see each situation as an individual choice and understand that there are exceptions to every rule, in the most extreme of circumstances. You however, claim to believe in absolute and utter, no exceptions ever, truth ( which is rather arrogant and unrealistic to all people in the world) and yet the Bible even cointradicts itself about the value of life, saying that the value of life only applies to humans. That is ridiculous - ALL life is precious if you follow that asolute, not for humans to pick and choose. At least I can understand exceptions. You claim to never have exceptions, yet you go and say animals are an excepion. HUH? Where's the logic in that? I think there is somewhere a much greater TRUTH than what we can imagine, and that truth is not based on punishment, but on LOVE of ALL and ACCEPTANCE and understanding that people usually do their best to make good decisions, even in hard times. One good thing about this hopeful Universal truth, I hope that there will be no need of MONEY, which is certainly the root of all evil. (Funny how you referred to your dog as "property" instead of a LIFE, isn't it?)

One final reply to the last comment, since I have a couple of minutes. Agreed about some of the abortion issue, but always remember that sometimes people are in situations where they feel they have no other choice. I never said that such a decision does not cause much pain and regret, but sometimes the people in question feel that to bring that child (or soon to be child) into the world would cause the child MORE pain and suffering. That is why they make such a difficult and heart-wrenching choice.
As to my beliefs, the one important thing to remember is that I AM NOT saying that my beiliefs are ABSOLUTE and RIGHT, and the ONLY possible explanation that exists. I am simply saying that there are MANY different explanations for the world and human beings, ranging from the Christian God to Buddhism to Hinduism to some New Age religions. ALL of these ideas are vaild and should be given some consideration. (Some even say that alien beings created us through genetic engineering. That one at least makes some sense to me, since we can PHYSICALLY see the results of genetic engineering as a scientific fact, and at least have some scientific POSSIBILITY of other intelligent life in the Universe). The difference between you and I is that you expouse your beliefs as The ONLY vaild truth when there COULD be many different truths. We live in a diverse world and diverse belief systems. Why can you not at least say -"this is what I believe, but that belief does not make anyone else's feelings invalid, incorrect, or wrong. I feel that for me this choice is right, but it may not be right for others". That at least does not sound arrogant. Why is it wrong for people to admit that they really don't KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt what lies beyond us? That is realistic, there are many things we don't KNOW as ABSOLUTE fact. The Bible was written by MAN as a way to understand his world, just the same as Greeks wrote myths and fables to explain their world. Why is it so wrong to say that one DOES NOT know? The difference here is that I am willing to admit HUMILITY and say that I don't KNOW for sure. You decree that your truth is the ONLY one and others should believe it or they are not obeying "the will of God". Remember, the extremist Muslims believed that their way was right and the ONLY way too. You see where that kind of thinking got us - 3000 people dead. Just think about it. I am not saying that your beliefs are invalid (as you say mine are), just that you should open your heart and mind to other's points of view - you never know, if you show an open mind and HUMILITY to learn about the world and others religions, you might learn something VERY useful - tolerance.
Anyway, so much for me. I wish you and your family the best over the holidays. May one day people of all nations and all belief systems be united one day to the point where humanity understands each other. Until then, fare thee well in your travels and you adventures.

I'm not usually one to comment at length, so I won't here either, but reading Robert's last post reminded me of something my dad used to say. "It's one thing to keep an open mind, but it's another thing to let it develop into a hole in your head."
I agree with Joel on this one. There is absolute truth. Questioning that fact shows much more faith than Christianity requires. Misdirected faith, unfortunately.

Robert,

I am very sorry that you allowed people and their inability to answer your questions to get in the way of pursuing the answers to those questions. This is truly religion gone bad.

But the fact is, there ARE answers to the questions, and they go significantly deeper than "because God said so". There are volumes of evidence that support the Bible and the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, if one would choose to seek it out and evaluate it with an open mind.

It appears you have made your choice. You have absolutely no evidence to backup your theology other than your wishing it to be true. It is based in little more than your personal feelings on the issue and how you think the world SHOULD be run, were you God.

Thankfully, you are not. :-)

I do wish you well, Robert. And may I suggest that you release the hurts that you experienced at the hands of so-called 'religious people', and instead investigate the claims of Jesus Christ for yourself, testing them with a scholarly approach to see if they stand the test of time.

Jesus said He was the only way. If He isn't, He is nothing more than a liar or a madman, hardly worthy of being called a "great teacher". But if He is, perhaps you would do well to find out who He REALLY is, apart from your preconceived notions. You might be quite surprised at what you discover. I know I was!

Best to you,

Joel

An interesting thought I found from a website about free thought that might be of merit. This is why FREE THOUGHT is so important and why NOT believing in a particular religion is actually quite intellectual.
"The bottom line is that those who dare to question and challenge cherished beliefs which are not rational and reasonable, and who live relatively righteous lives without such irrational and intolerant beliefs, should be recognized as being the epitome of what any god person would wish in "his children." They are utilizing all of the gifts that such a god person would provide, were "he" real. And if they have utilized these "God-given" gifts, they know that the interpretation of "God" is a cultural artifact, not an absolute truth that must be defended and beaten into other people. In using these gifts, they will discover that over the millennia, hundreds of millions of people have held differing opinions as to the Infinite, which is only common sense, since it is, after all, Infinite."
Enjoy....

Ahhh - the end of the innocence. I think I bid bid you a fond farewell now. For the record, I would like you to know that these little debate seesions have been quite enlightening, and I would actually like to thank you for being able to participate in them. See, the difference between you and I is that I feel that I learned something from these exchanges. I do not fault you for your beliefs, as many Christians (including you) fault others for having differing beliefs. I RESPECT your beliefs, even if I do not agree with all of them. As I said, the Universe is a BIG place, big enough for all of human imagination to have a place. I actually feel sad for you in the fact that your view is so LIMITED and so insistent on proving others wrong. I think you are a great person and wish you the best. Jesus Christ was a great MAN and not a lunatic, even if he was not necessarily a god. Also, did it ever occur to you that the Bible was written THOUSANDS of years ago and that MEN might have put their own changes into it. The words of Jesus that are printed may not even be the actual teachings that he offered. The truth is, we don't KNOW. It has actually been proven through many scholars of linguistics and culture that Bible study is VERY difficult. Were YOU around 2000 years ago to really KNOW what Jesus said? We have only faith to determine that. If you claim that I am against Jesus, that's fine. If that is the way he really thought, that no matter how good of a person you are, it means nothing unless you believe in and bow down to him, then I don't really want to know more about him. See, Hitler thought like that too. Religion is much more about CONTROL than it is of love. But guess what, I think Jesus was saying a LOT MORE to humanity than the LIMITED view that some people show. I will continue to lead a moral and righteous life and continue to be open minded, and whatever afterlife there may be, I hope to see you there. Believe me, I won't be in Hell for being a good person. Then we can discuss the wonders of the Universe with much more clarity.
Until then, take care and continue to do good work for people. Right now, HUMANITY needs love and attention, and later (after death) we can worry about theology and truth. Fare thee well...

I am very troubled that the various Hospice foundations use "pain killing" medications so liberally so as to speed up the death of countless numbers of people. Yes, some of these people are in pain, but not all, some are just debilitated beyond what some would consider a "meaningful life' and while they may not recover to full functioning, they perhaps would survive, at least, to be enjoyed and enjoy what's left. Who gets to determine the point at which human life is not worth living?

When lethal doses of morophine, oxyfast, and other similar drugs are given and the body's organs begin to shut down rapidly,doesn't that constitute murder, inducing more pain, both psychologically and perhaps physically for both the dying and the loved ones wittnessing the rapidity of the death process with no chance to change their direction (having been coaxed into believing that it's the kindest way to release their loved one)

Hospice should be required at the onset of admitting a patient into the program, to give (in writing) to the patient and his/her family, a written explanation of the final poisoning they will administer to their patients under the guise of easing the suffering. This should be discussed openly while the patient is still cognitive enough to understand, and be given a choice as to whether or not he/she wishes this "rapid death" to occur. Also, alternatives for non-lethal medicating should be presented early out, as options that may not be as effective in pain relief, but would not speed up the death process.

This form of government funded euthanasia is rampant and doesn't have a checks and balance system to monitor this dispicable practice.

I was told by a Hospice worker that my mother would "twitch" indicating that she needed more pain medicine. Wanting to relieve her pain, we allowed higher levels of medication to be administered. I happened to notice that she twitched more AFTER the medicine was administered. By that time, it was too late to undo the damage the lethal doses of medication had done to her. Later, after her death, I found out that the twitching was signaling that her organs were shutting down rapidly as a result of the mediation. This cruel deception was and is played out routinely with family members, playing on their heart-wrenched emotions, in order to speed up the death process and move on to Hospice's next victim, funded by your government and your hard earn tax dollars.

How sick do I have to be to have my death sped up by this "compasionate" closed society - and the doctors that play god - how sick is that?

I have a friend whose mother was discovered to have cancer on Thursday and with the help of Hospice, was dead by Monday night. Wow - it doesn't get much better than that ... no suffering here... and no goodbyes!

Wake up people, legislation must be passed so that a checks and balance system is in place and the patient and family is fully informed before the point of no return.

Is anybody listening?