I regularly receive joint venture proposals from people.
A small percentage of them have some really good ideas and products, but the majority of them are not good at all.
Today I received an email from a couple gentlemen in Australia. I hope the email and my response will be instructive for the recipients and for others as they seek to do joint ventures.
The subject line on the email was "Joint Venture Proposal - Act NOW!"
Apparently this gentleman has contacted me with this proposal before.
Good Morning,Last month I sent you a Joint Venture Proposal. In case you overlooked my email, I have attached the JV Proposal for your immediate attention.
To recap:
I'm working with one of the top personal development websites online. We've developed a marketing model that many online businesses exactly like yours are using to generate a strong six figure residual income.
I can only make this offer to a limited number of people, so if you would like to generate a residual income (I will do most of the work for you) you must join today!
Really.
Wow. I'd better hurry up and get signed up quickly. Opportunities like this don't grace my doorstep every day.
The sender than attached a Word document to provide all the details of the opportunity, which was really nothing more than a pitch for Success University. I have no qualms with Success University, though I wonder if this type of solicitation is a violation of their terms of service.
Not only did the sender hit my mailbox, but from the "To:" line, I could also see that they were taking a scattershot approach to their proposal by sending to multiple prospects.
This is the email that I sent back to the offender, hoping that they would learn a few things about JV etiquette...
I appreciate your zeal, but this is a highly inappropriate way to request a joint venture.First of all, I don't know you. It might be better for you to introduce yourself to me at a conference rather than just shoot out emails... and even worse...
You did a bulk email to several people, indicating that you are really just tossing a bunch of names against the wall and hoping something will stick. Not good, especially since you made everyone else's emails public. It's possible that others don't WANT their email addresses made public.
Next, you apparantly have already emailed me once on this proposal. To do so again "in case I didn't receive it" is really abusing my inbox.
I find it insulting that you would tell me that this is a "limited offer" and that I must "hurry" if I wish to take advantage of it. That might be appropriate for someone who doesn't have a track record, but I field proposals every day. I'm not trying to be high and mighty. Rather, I hope you will find this instructive as you attempt to find others to jv with you.
Finally, if you want to do jv's with people, they aren't going to care much about what you have until they know that you care about them. No one wants to be used just because of their position in the marketplace. Instead, you should ask what you can do FOR others. Then perhaps they will be receptive to what you have to say.
I am copying everyone else on this as they might be feeling the same thing. I care about your success and hope this email is helpful for you.
I have already heard back from one of the others who received this proposal. She wrote...
I couldn't have said it better myself.I appreciate the mini-education you just sent them. Hopefully, it will 'stick'
So now you know how NOT to propose a joint venture!
Like many others, my time is in short supply. I do like to receive jv proposals, but reviewing them takes time as well!
That's why I have put together a site to help me vet the proposals which are legitimate and worth my time.
Yes, there IS a fee to propose a joint venture with me. And whether I accept the JV or not, those who submit their proposal are guaranteed to receive input that will help them improve their product or service and make it more attractive to other potential partners.
If you are interested in proposing a joint venture to me, go to JV with Joel.
I also have a free report that I would like to offer you. It is called The Art of the Joint Venture: How to Network You Way to Success. Be sure you download your free copy.
It's Del.icio.us!
Furl It!
March 2, 2008 08:39 PM
Another classy reaction by JComm. He obviously doesn't know who you are.
And moreover doesn't know who he is. It is 2008, and even the greenest IMer has got to have clue of what has universally been indicted as spam and spammy.
If he gave you his real name, he just cut hurt his future with a dream JV partner.
Let us know if you receive a response please.
March 2, 2008 08:48 PM
Hi Joel,
The fact that they said "Joint Venture Proposal" in their email notwithstanding, I don't see how this can be considered anything other than pure, unadulterated UCE. aka spam. Your patience with them is admirable. No, it's SAINTLY!
I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that someone capable of sending a large block of emails like this (particularly to advanced marketers) will NEVER secure a single Joint Venture in their entire online career.
March 2, 2008 09:18 PM
That's terrible. I can't believe people do that.
Now, did you get the email I sent you about this killer product I'm selling and giving 220% commission on? Act fast cuz this could really make us a lot of money.
:-)
March 2, 2008 10:55 PM
I'm sure you have check that company out. If not, you should - trust me. You definately made the right decision, even if the manner inwhich the proposal was made had been to your liking.
March 2, 2008 11:35 PM
Joel, I feel the same way as a customer on an email list fielding offers to buy products.
You wrote: I find it insulting that you would tell me that this is a "limited offer" and that I must "hurry" if I wish to take advantage of it.
A little input from one who is fed up with limited one time offers.
March 3, 2008 12:12 AM
Ed,
If someone is trying to sell me on reasons to do a JV, clearly it does not have a time limit on it.
You'll notice that most of my products either sell out or have a price increase after a certain number of units or span of time.
If I put limited offer on a page, I do have a limit. It may be quantity. It may be time. But there is a limit.
Joel
March 3, 2008 12:28 AM
Hi Joel.
I found this an inspiring post. To many of us doing our
best at internet marketing we are met with either NO
response to E-mails sent, or a 'Hoity-Toity', I'm too
important to be bothered with small-fry like you attitude.
Obviously the person who sent that 'JV' to you was well
out of order. But your response was 'blunt' but at the
same time caring, reassuring and helpful to the offender.
It couldn't have put you in a better light if you'd tried.
An education in manners is how I read it.
Many thanks,
Pete.
March 3, 2008 12:38 AM
Joel, as a brand new product idea without doing the JV-Partnership Plan
& something which will definitely help all buyers & sellers online, my thoughts have concentrated on an idea. Imagine if there was such a program that would collect all forms of online business details from seller to buyer collected from agencies like Pay Pal, Storm Pay, eBay, Click Bank etc and collectively make a page which could be installed
into Google's Directory Listing. The concept is quite plain & simple. Firstly, instead of overloading Google's Database Servers with irrelevant, illegal or useless information - each client would have their own "Special Page - Password Encrypted". In the event a client has a major computer crash or malfunction and they lose their valuable information all they have to do is get their computers back online & access their "Special Page".
Once their page opens, it is a complete Archival statement which would have all the embedded links to re-download their lost articles (without penalty) from the original buyers. The statements would be imprinted with the exact details including dates & time when those transactions took place, the amount of sale and direct links to the clients online profile information which would help to make the transition of recovery, a painless a flow through experience. Something like this really needs to be invented. It would restore consumer satisfaction and bestow some for of guarantee to each and every client or consumer. It would herald to many organizations that protect the rights of consumers that some form of interaction process is in place to safeguard and help restore their lost information. That's it, I hope you do well with this. Frank Burns
March 3, 2008 06:49 AM
Great advice here, Joel, for anyone who wants to learn how to do Joint Venture proposals.
I have frequently received similar bulk-type emails and they hit the trash bin immediately. That type of email tells me that they don't want a relationship with the "potential partners" (and I use that term loosely here) they sent the email to. They just want the money that those people can bring in for them.
And that's definitely the wrong way to get my attention AND my help.
Denise
March 3, 2008 06:59 AM
Hi Joel.
This is my first visit here and upon reading this post, I wouldn't have thought that you actually go through every proposal that comes into your inbox.
Wouldn't it be too troublesome to differentiate between spams and the so-called proposals? And wouldn't responding to them, make your email add more vulnerable?
Just curious,
Ken
March 3, 2008 07:07 AM
I laughed out really loud when I read the Australian's email - I find his email really, really low class. I can't imagine anyone proposing a JV like that!
Anyways its really a great post and anyone who intends (or even planning or thinking about) proposing JVs with others (especially to gurus) should read this post and remember what NOT to do thoroughly.
Cheers!
Jun Yuan Lim
March 3, 2008 07:11 AM
Joel
Once again you are head and shoulders above the flock here. I know that from my personal experience asking you to be a JV with me for seocodebreaker.com.
Since I'm one of the 4 people Keith Wellman used for his case study for the Million Dollar March I now understand how valuable your time is and the fact that you personally took the time to let me know that you would be able to work with me on it.
Thanks
Charles Kirkland
March 3, 2008 07:22 AM
Joel,
Did this guy pay your fee and still send you this, or did
he just know your email address?
If he paid the $500 fee for your review, he surely wasted
his money with such a vague and "assuming" type of email.
I really like the JV review thing, but I wish more people
where doing it!
Way to go on being a pioneer in that front :)
March 3, 2008 07:23 AM
Hi Joel,
I have been battling this phenomenon for quite some time also. I know you don't know me but you soon will, I am assured. And I more look forward to personally meeting you.
This is a little something I wrote some time back about the importance of getting personal and exposing yourself to others.
I hope in some small way this helps get your point across.
Introductions!!
A lot of people overlook the intro section on a forum site. I always asked myself why anyone would pass up an opportunity to introduce themselves if they are actually networking. Your profile on social sites works the same way, If people are looking for a program they will find it on your profile. That is providing that you have provided enough personal information and invited them into your world. That is what will get them to take notice!
Here is the deal; you should never pass up the opportunity to tell a little about yourself and your life. People are more often than not looking to make a connection with someone because of who they are ( not what project they are pushing). Better yet the more you reveal about yourself the more the chance is that someone will find some common ground in your life, that connection is networking
Don't worry about your program that is what you have a sig-line or box on your profile for.
Brad West
onomoney
March 3, 2008 07:37 AM
I have received proposals at www.airequation.org. After reading this and other posts, I've learned a lot about how to handle them. Thanks.
March 3, 2008 07:45 AM
When I saw your email talking bad about how a couple of Australians tried to set up a JV with you I was almost ready to send you a 'go easy' message, but by the time I finished reading your story I was just plain saddened that this kind of spam rubbish actually came out of Australia.
We had a world landmark case against a spammer by the name of Wayne Mansfield right here in Perth, Australia (which is where I am).
He was fined $5.5 million dollars by the Australian government last year for spamming. Most thought that this was just for show and that he would just close that business and start up a new one, but the government was wise to this guy so they fined his business $4.5 million and him personally $1 million.
The business did go broke so that fine never got paid, but the $1 million personal debt stays with him forever - until he dies or pays it whichever comes first - even if he goes bankrupt.
There is no statute of limitations on a government imposed fine. And they are aggressively going after him for everything he has. I have met the guy and seen the letters from the government. His life is a financial and emotional wreck. It's no joking matter (you can search for Wayne Mansfield in Google if you want to read up on the case).
Anyway as I said at the beginning, it's really sad that people don't learn from this kind of thing. And it saddens me that some people smear the good name of Australia with this kind of rubbish.
I feel almost compelled to apologize on their foolish behalf.
March 3, 2008 07:57 AM
Hey its good to see, that even a letter like this can catch your attention:)
I'm living in Europe so if a JV idea with you suddenly occures to me (could happen in a 1000 years) Its good to know that it is possible to start a conversation with you by e-mail:) Other than that I was aware that theres a lot of spam around and spammers usually don't care much about those 300000000000 recipients reel identity :)
March 3, 2008 07:58 AM
Joel-
I appreciate that you are always willing to present great examples of how to do or deal with so many situations that arise. Through that, you present a very positive example to follow. And along the way, you show to us some really excellent resources on top of it. You show over and over that you really do have a drive to help people succeed.
Thank you. I admire your style and level of professionalism.
March 3, 2008 08:13 AM
Emails I recieve daily:
"Attention: Beneficiary,
I am Ms.Thelma A. Davis,an America Lady working as an auditor in Central Bank Of Nigeria,I am Instructed to officially inform you that we have verified your contract/Lotto /inheritance file and found out that why you have not received your payment is because you have not fulfilled the obligations given to you in respect of your payment..."
I use AOL and report such as spam. I have also recieved many responses to all of my many craigslist ads such as:
"Hello Seller, How are you doing today? please i just want you to know that i came across your () in which you stated that you wanted to sell,so i want you to know that am interested in it so please i will like know the condition and you to get back to me with your last price and the shipping cost with your name,address and phone number okay.i have my shipper company that will handle the shipping to my destination looking forward to read from you soon,stay bless and have a wonderful time till i read from you again.."
I am fed up with these kinds of ads and short of putting up full spam control on my emails, which I intend not to do, I am just deleting like mad. I can spot a spam email, just as most people can, from a mile away. I can't believe there are people out there that fall for this crap still.
March 3, 2008 08:33 AM
Hi Joel,
As a publisher of Arigola e-Millionaire Newsletter I also got many JV proposals. But as far as I remembered, none of them was as nasty as the one you received.
It takes a real gentleman to reply with such a helpful insight.
And it takes a real guru to turn dirt into something very very useful for others.
Bravo! Joel!
Regards,
Rizky
March 3, 2008 10:09 AM
Hello All
I have sat here reading all of the responses to Joel's post. I understand why Joel wrote what he did and where the jv proposal went wrong but do all you peopple have to sit here and kiss his @#$. You sheep are all just jumping on these poor shmos that probably have never done anything like this before and need direction and knowledge not harassment.
All of you need to show some respect and if you have something constructive to add to help these fellows than by all meens provide it. If all you perfect people have never made a mistake in your carreer than I salute you but stop the disrespect.
Robert Sherlock
March 3, 2008 10:50 AM
Joel,
Thanks for continuing to be a giver. I know that you know that you will continue to reap the rewards for the service you provide!! Keep the commitment.
Ken
March 3, 2008 11:06 AM
Hi Joel -
Glad you were able to "make lemonade" from the pitch you got. If nothing else, that person will certainly take a second look at his methods.
As for the WAY this poor guy proposed his JV...
Sadly, I actually SAW a guide to JV proposals that was instructing people to do it this way... obviously crap, but a newbie wouldn't understand that. They expect that a product they paid money for to be the RIGHT way of doing things. It's painfully OBVIOUS by the fact that he sent the email to multiple people publicly that he doesn't understand, so I am sorta shocked, Joel, that you took such a "hardass" approach with him.
There are hundreds of free resources available to show people how to do things right. Point these people in THOSE directions rather than getting "insulted". (And yes, I am aware you sent them your free report download; I meant in general)
March 3, 2008 11:26 AM
I begin by saying I am in full agreement with the inappropriateness of the pitch, the specific sales tactics used by the proponent, the info Joel provided in his response, and the agreement of Joel's own respondents.
That said, may I gently and respectfully also agree with Robert? I thoroughly believe Joel got this proposal not from an ignorant cad, but from a marketing beginner like so many of us who'd love a chance to work with the big guys but whose communication skills need work. How much do you want to bet he's a perfectly nice person, and maybe even a better marketer, IN person? Not everyone writes as they speak ...
And Joel, your words were right-on and educational, but I'd have been a little more gentle and have found a less blunt way to remind the poor guy of your guru status. And -- knowing he was a beginner -- I certainly wouldn't have felt offended being the recipient of a marketing ploy every one of you big guys uses with us every day!
If you don't want to get the "limited-time offer" and "hurry" ploys ... please don't ever use them on us, your customers. You're no better than we are -- just a lot luckier that you got started earlier when things were a wee bit more open.
In the end I know your response was needed, but please be open-minded. He used those tactics not to insult you, but because he gets them all the time just like the rest of us, and was honest-to-goodness convinced they'd work on you just as they're supposed to work on us. Are you starting to forget what it was like to be a beginner?
March 3, 2008 12:20 PM
Wow Joel, that is definitely the wrong way to propose a joint venture, that was downright rude of them to spam you like that. I would never propose a joint venture unless I knew for sure that what I bring to the table is compatible with what my potential jv partner brings to the table, and I would never say anything that sounds like "now or never", that is the most rude thing you can do in a joint venture proposal is to tell you're potential jv partner "now or never". If I believe a joint venture will enhance my cashflow and I can afford the investment, of both time and money, I'll jump on it, but only if it's introduced to me properly, I will never reward a spammer with a joint venture.
To your success,
Ben
March 3, 2008 12:25 PM
UPDATE!
Received a reply from our friend in Australia...
-----------------
I do appreciate your input here. I am a client of yours (having purchased
products from you in the past) and of the other people I sent the email to.
After I sent the email I realized that everyone in the folder would have
access to the email addresses, and for that I sincerely apologize. I sent
the original offers individually and then placed them into a folder.
Obviously I have a lot to learn! I recently attended the Success University
launch where Matt Morris instructed on the power of Joint Ventures. I'm
afraid I was trying to combine too many marketing tools, by using the
"limited offer" and "hurry", this was certainly not what Matt taught me on
the day. I'm really sorry, you've shown me that I have a lot more to learn
than I thought.
I believed I was offering to help those I sent the emails to, I would be
working very hard to grow the business for everyone's benefit. Obviously
I've gone about it the wrong way.
My most sincere apologies to you.
-----------------------
So there you have it. Gracious and apologetic.
I, for one, am thankful for all the contact. It gave me something to write about and hopefully provided useful lessons for all of us.
March 3, 2008 12:38 PM
Joel- good stuff here! After making over $600,000 working a Direct Sales company with real Internet marketing and direct mass media marketing it is clear to see why it was so easy for me to succeed... because this kind of trash is what most people are getting when they ask for information on how to work from home. These kind of pitches and emails are more than common.. they are the ordinary. Come in with the approach that you gave here.. everyone makes more money and honestly? Feels better about themselves! I hope your readers realize the GOLD gem you gave here..! Service makes millions, not sales. Permission Marketing not stuff it down your throat you'll love it stupidity. The sad fact is most have NO training at all how to market what they have, period. That might be a good JV to do someday...... real training on how to market your Success University or your MLM or your whatever..... To success.. you Rock Joel!
March 3, 2008 12:51 PM
Well said Anna, I couldn't have said it better myself.
I have the utmost respect for people like Joel, but we trainee marketeers have to endure a daily bombardment of our inboxes from the "Gurus".
Therefore I think we should return the favor once in a while.
Yes we can unsubscribe, but then we might miss the next big thing ;-)
By the way Joel, I have a great domain in my portfolio, http://www.winmystuff.com
Does it sound familiar to you?
Regards,
Ken.
March 3, 2008 01:35 PM
Hi Joel
I would like to do a JV with you, who wouldn't! However the reason I have not contacted you is because I respect your track record in the business and hope that when the time comes for me to approach you it will be done in a more thought out way, and one that can benefit all!
I certainly would not have the audacity to contact you in such away and the fact that you are trying to provide these gentleman with guidance on the etiquette involved in a jv approach speaks volumes for you.
These guys are probably desperate to earn money, and I won't knock them for that, but I hope they learn from this experience in a positive manner.
Chris
March 3, 2008 01:48 PM
You are as always the KING. Instead of hitting the delete button you offer excellent advice. Great seeing you at the Affiliate Summit too!
March 3, 2008 01:54 PM
You say your time is short... why did you bother replying? :)
March 3, 2008 01:57 PM
I had hoped to educate the sender and thought it would be instructive for others as well.
March 3, 2008 02:27 PM
I am actually thinking of charging for people to submit press releases to me, which in many ways is similar.
Just to play (friendly) devil's advocate - how long was Gary's IM message to you about Mike's "Death of IM" ? ;)
March 3, 2008 02:53 PM
Joel,
Thank you for sharing this joint venture story.
It was certainly instructive for me, and it seems for the sender as well.
March 3, 2008 02:57 PM
Yay! Another argument in favor of networking. My "silly" question for today is: what's the difference between joint ventures and strategic alliances?
-Jody
March 3, 2008 03:52 PM
Joel,
Same goes for all crap offers you send me saying hurry up, order now, one time opportunity or miss out, etc. This can be quite insulting.
By all means keep up all the good positive work you do, but please spare sending me your AMAZING ONE TIME OFFERS, HURRY, ORDER NOW ??
John
March 3, 2008 04:06 PM
I seem to get a few of what John says, too, hence my rather flippant remark earlier.
Good luck, though... you do some good work and are clearly respected in your field.
Paul
March 3, 2008 04:08 PM
Rule #1 - DO NOT SPAM
This guy obviously didn't know who you are or has a half baked marketing education. Hopefully he did learn from this experience. We have all done some stupid things in our marketing "education" (of hard knocks).
March 3, 2008 04:09 PM
John and others who don't like the one-time offers, etc...
There is big difference in what I send and what I was sent.
The difference is PERMISSION. You opted-in to my mailing list. And it is just as easy to unsubscribe if you aren't happy with what you receive.
As for the content, in this industry offers ARE frequently limited. Prices DO go up.
Thanks for your comments!
:-)
Joel
March 3, 2008 04:50 PM
LOL, i do the same thing to telemarketers >:)
March 3, 2008 06:16 PM
Hiya Joel,
Very nice JV Request page. Very clear and fair - professional and generous in fact.
Price is clearly reasonable. Obviously, if it's a real offer, a person won't balk at the cost.
March 3, 2008 06:28 PM
Hurry
Limited Offer Only
Wow, he probably learned those magical words from his Copywriting Night School.
Carlos V.
March 3, 2008 09:05 PM
Excellent informative post, Joel. I'm amazed you took the time to educate this ignorant person. (I'm certainly astounded at the fact they revealed others' emails - ugh, one of my mega pet peeves!) Clearly, he doesn't get it's relationships first, business second. At least that's how I see it.
I'm off to get your Art of the Joint Venture free report! ...seeing I'm managing a JV myself just now. :)
March 4, 2008 01:26 AM
Thanks
March 4, 2008 01:37 PM
Way to go Joel. However, I don't bother replying. I just post it in my Internet Scams blog for all to see. You would be surprised how much traffic this blog gets and is increasing quite a bit.
Regards,
Col :)
P.S Thanks for the Facebook message about this.
March 4, 2008 04:41 PM
lol - does he know who he is trying to network with lol!
March 4, 2008 07:21 PM
There are examples of such bad letters in "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You'd think that after 80 or so years, people would figure out how to not write such shoddy offers. :)
-Dave
March 5, 2008 05:14 AM
Hi Joel,
Great info.
Even though I'm not a great fan of your business style I like the way you spent the time to help others.
On a more personal note: Australians are alot harder to market too, and I believe my countrymen feel for a bit of American Stupidity when offering you a JV.
If I was going to offer you a JV I'd be calling you and if was going to be reasonable sized venture I'd be on the next plane visiting you with a present.
That's after I send you a cardboard IPhone or Itouch to reminder you of the benefits of JV with me ;)
Anyway watch out Australia has some fantastic Internet Marketers!
March 5, 2008 01:43 PM
The fact that people still try this stuff amazes me.
I have a joint venture proposal for you...
Register your blog in our network at Yovia.com and we will promote it all month...it's blogger appreciation month.
March 6, 2008 09:38 PM
Hi Joel
You probably have my email address because I was also one of the people who received this email! I also received a heart felt apology from them a few days later which I'm sure was the result of your feedback.
I agree that this is not the way to propose a JV and I also agree that it is our responsibility to educate less experienced marketers on the right way to do things(so congratulations on taking this responsibility seriously).
Students of Internet Marketing are bombarded daily with hype about how they can make rediculous amounts of money overnight. It is easy for people who get sucked into this hype to think naively that they just need to use the same hyped up methods aimed at people with influence and they'll be rolling in cash.
The reality is success is all about relationships. I'm sure this couple have learnt a lot and they have you to thank for that. Now, we just need to work on the Nigerian man who keeps emailing my help desk to propose a joint venture that will just require me to invest $500,000 to start with......:)
March 14, 2008 05:09 AM
Understanding The Key Components A Successful Joint Venture:
If you have been on-line for any amount of time you will have heard of successful product launches and the part that joint ventures had to play in these. Joint ventures have generally been seen as the reserve of the more experienced and successful on-line marketer. However to actually approach a potential joint venture partner it is not always necessary to be established, although it does help of course. Follow the link for further information.
April 7, 2008 11:57 PM
I genuinely appreciate the effort you made to put him back on the right track,which I am sure would help his professional growth in the long run. All the same, you could have been more a bit more considerate,having not marked your letter to the other addressed email owners.
-rashmi
February 3, 2009 11:10 AM
Ignorance is nothing more than the absence of knowledge. In the absence of knowledge we seek to gain that which makes us knowledgeable.
Thank, Joel, for an enlightening thread--I would bet there is not a one among us who has not made some faux paus in the process of learning. I give credit to those who make the mistakes, for without taking the risk, they are just another wannabe sitting on the couch. And a very succinct apology they have written--worthy of some forgiveness (I doubt they will ever cross this particular line again). To the Australians licking their wounds over this, learn from it and move forward. Good luck to you.
As for how Joel handled it, there are quite a few here and in his email, who have benefited from his sense of responsibility for pointing out something many others would have just ignored. Because he didn't, we all learned from the experience--most especially the original parties.