Several months back, I blogged about Mel Gibson and his upcoming movie, The Passion. The comments thread has gotten extremely long on that page as a spirited discussion between Catholics and Protestants has evolved.
I have created this new entry so the conversation may continue. As a primer for Catholicism and its many errors, I highly recommend Proclaiming the Gospel. As a dedicated Roman Catholic for over 30 years, the site's creator, Mike Gendron, speaks from an incredible depth of knowledge and authority about the Catholic church. He knows what it is like to be deceived and to come into the light.
Let the discussion continue...
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October 16, 2003 10:00 AM
Truth is what one must seek. One must even abandon their own mother, father, sister and all their possessions to find truth.
One does not follow Jesus Christ, Islam, or Carl Marx, one must only follow truth. This is the sure path to the narrow gate that leads to salvation.
The most important weapon in the search for truth is willingness for complete abandonment of ALL the things that stand in the way of finding truth. One may have to leave behind family, friends, congregation, their profession, there worldly loves, and everything else that gets in the way of acquiring truth.
THERE ARE FEW WHO WILL DO THIS! JESUS CHRIST SAID "MANY SHALL TRY TO ENTER THEREIN, BUT FEW SHALL FIND IT".
I sought that truth, with no preconceived prejudices; I learned all the "answers out there":
New Age-"Castaneda-ism", transcendental meditation, Deepak Chopra, etc.
Protestantism
Spiritualism
Communism
My method for finding truth is to seek consistency; one thing must be part of another. I stay alert for inconsistencies (=errors). When I find errors, I study that aspect THOROUGHLY, since I could be the one who is wrong. I study it with no preconceived prejudices (=pre-judged- ments), for I have no attachments, my only trophy is truth.
I ONLY FIND “THAT” CONSISTENCY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. IT IS THE ONLY RELIGION/WAY OF THINKING
THAT HAS UNITY OF HISTORY, GOVENRMENT, AND DOCTRINE. IT HAS MORE DOCTRINE WRITTEN ON THE SUBJECT OF GRACE ALONE THAN ALL THE DOCTRINE COMBINED OF ANY OTHER RELIGION! IT IS THIS PRESCISION, PRESCISION THAT NO OTHER RELIGION/ PHILOSOPHY HAS.
JESUS CHRIST AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAVE NO DISPLEASURE WITH THOSE WHO SEEK TRUTH, FOR THEY WILL FIND THAT TRUTH ONLY IN JESUS CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH.
NO RELIGION HAS THIS UNITY AND PRESCISION OF DOCTRINE. THERE ARE SOME PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS THAT HAVE WRITTEN THEIR THOUGHTS ON SUBJECTS (ANGLICANS, LUTHERANS, AND CALVINISTS); HOWEVER, THESE ARE NOT AGREED TO BY THEIR OWN CONGRETAIONS, LET ALONE, THE OTHER DENOMINATIONS. THEY ARE JUST WRITTEN DOWN THOUGHTS. THAT IS NOT UNITY OF DOCTRINE.
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AMDG
October 16, 2003 10:01 AM
THE BIG INCONSISTENCIES OF PROTESTANTISM:
1) There is no Protestant Church. It's not in the phone book. There are a countless collection of competing churches (Lutherans, Baptists, Adventists, Unitarians, Mennonites, the church on the corner, and so on) each broken down even further into a collection of splintering groups, all with no fixed doctrines, and within each church building further broken down to as many different beliefs as there are people. Basically it is anarchy, and just a glorified individualism. They can't agree on anything except that they are "protesting" the Catholic Church. IT WOULD BE A TOTAL MIS-USE OF LANGUAGE, AND IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF MENTAL GYNASTICS TO SAY THAT IS "A" CHURCH.
"Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. (Mat 10:25)"
2) There was not a single Protestant in the world till Martin Luther (a Catholic priest). Not one single Protestant. Not one Protestant till 1500 years after Christ. Europe was all Catholic. Anyone with European blood lines in all probabilities had Catholic forefathers.
3) The only source for Protestants knowledge of Jesus Christ is a book (NT), a book put together, authenticated, and preserved pure by the Catholic Church. A book each "individualist" now lives as he wants WITHOUT REGARD, WITH EVEN DIDAIN, FOR ALL THAT CAME BEFORE HIM TO BRING HIM THIS KNOWLEDGE. EACH GENERATION DISREGARDING ALL PREVIOUS HISTORY, AND STARTING ON THEIR OWN.
THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE ON THE PATH OF TRUTH (THOSE WHICH CAN ONLY BE IDENTIED BY GOD, WHO KNOWS OUR INNER THOUGHTS), WHO ARE ONLY PASSING THROUGH THIS "INDIVIDUALISM", FOR THOSE GOD HAS NO DISPLEASURE.
ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO ARE OUR "BROTHERS", AND WHO ARE WOLVE'S IN SHEEPS CLOTHING.THERE IS ENOUGH WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE ABOUT HERESIES AND HERETICS WHOM WE MUST AVOID, AND NOT FOLLOW. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS THERE FROM THE BEGINNING, AND ALL THE OTHERS WERE THE HERETICS.
EITHER THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE CHURCH OF GOD, AND ALL OTHERS ARE HERESIES OR CHRIST IS A LIER, FOR HE SAID THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL, AND THERE IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH 2000 YEARS LATER IN ALL IT'S UNITY, PREVAILING, AND THE PROTESTATIONS STARTED BY MARTIN LUTHER IS TODAY TOTAL INDIVIDUALISM and ANARCHY.
I CAN'T JUDGE JOEL, JR, OR MIKE FOR BEING CHRIST BELIEVING INDIVIDUALISTS, FOR I CAN'T READ THEIR HEARTS. I DO KNOW ONE THING, IF THEY "GET PLUGGED INTO ANOTHER FALSE CHURCH", IT MAY JUST DELAY THEM OR COMPLETELY SIDELINE THEM FROM THE PATH OF TRUTH.
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AMDG
October 16, 2003 10:17 AM
It is impossible to be "plugged in" to the wrong church, when that church is the Body of Christ Himself. His is the only Church, and it is not an organization twisted and perverted by man.
October 16, 2003 12:12 PM
Reply to Joel,
That's it? That's the answer of life?
Reminds me of the joke about the man who spent his life traveling here and there searching for the answer of life. He was told at a party that an ancient maharishi in Nepal had the answer of life, the all knowing one, that he was over 100 years old and may not be aoroubnd for long.
So he set out to Nepal, and after reaching the mountain cave where the great ancient maharishi lived, he found an old nan in the lotus position with hair and beard 8+ foot long. He asked him, "Are you the all wise one" and the ancient man nodded yes. Then he asked him "O wise one What is the secret of life?" AND the wise one answered in a faint fleeting voice;
"Life is like a river"
Some time passed and he said nothing else, and so the man said That's it! I've spent my whole life searching for the secret of life and you say that's it, "life is like a river"?
And after a pause of silence, the old man said;
SO, MAYBE IT'S NOT.
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AMDG
October 16, 2003 02:06 PM
Dear Peter,
You bring up some very good points. A lot of what you said is the source of much of my respect for my Catholic Brothers and Sisters and the Catholic Church itself.
First off, however, Protestantism did not break away from ALL the teachings that were laid down by so many wonderful Catholic saints and thinkers in centuries past. They broke away from that which they felt were inconsistencies (and indeed heresies) in the INSTITUTION of the Church. For surely you will agree that an institution, even though it may have been instituted by God, can become corrupt. Look at Judaism! Christ rebuked the teachers of the law because he knew they had departed from that which was truly in scripture. Look how far they have departed in this day! As a Jewish believer in Jesus myself, it pains me to see it, yet I do acknowledge it.
In the same way, selling indulgences for money (to name one problem among many) was a clear sign that the INSTITUTION OF THAT DAY (NOT the current Catholic Church) had become corrupt, and that God's presence was not in that place. How could any of us worship in a place where the right to sin was being sold for money? How could I trust the counsel of my priest when I would suspect all he was interested in was seizing my wallet?
As I have acknowledged before, the Protestant Church has its problems too. I would definately agree with you that one of those problems is DISUNITY. The bickering and distrust between denominations is not from the Lord. However Peter, do not claim an all encompassing unity in the Catholic church. I have heard theology from different Catholics that is every bit as "diverse" (for lack of a better word) as theology I have heard from Protestants. The Catholic Church may be under one institutionalized government as you say, but it has its own disunity just as the Protestant Church does. If you sit a liberal Catholic with a Conservative, they will bicker just as much as any Baptist and Pentecostal would. The fact they are under some institution all the way in Rome becomes immaterial.
Another thing to to ponder: at UC Berkeley where I am a senior, there are over 30 Christian fellowships with all kinds of different ideas about worship and all kinds of traditions. I personally believe that someone who does not experience the power of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues (the "groaning" of the spirit) is not experiencing the fullness of who God is. There are 3,000 Christians here who do not believe that at all. Yet a tremendous unity exists between the fellowships here. My fellowship helps out Campus Crusade for Christ in some of their large outreaches, and they come together with us to pray for Berkeley. I don't agree with every minute detail of their practice and how they disciple people, but many of them are my closest friends and brothers. They have a powerful ministry, and I support that with all my heart.
That is unity. That is unity that exists in the Protestant Church, Peter, and that is the most important kind because it changes lives.
Peter, you have not addressed the scripture I shared about how ALL believers are a royal priesthood. I am curious to hear what your thoughts are on that.
All right everyone. God bless you and farewell.
Sincerely,
Philip
October 16, 2003 05:41 PM
Reply to Philip,
Re: Romans 6:1-15 & royal priesthood
If I were an atheist you were trying to convince, I would tell you that I'll need more than what these say to believe I'm saved by just "accepting Jesus". This Romans is too vague.
Here's an example of clear instruction:
16 He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned. (Mark 16)
20..... in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved BY WATER. 21 Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also.... (1 Peter 3)
THESE ARE VERY CLEAR THAT IF ONE IS NOT BAPTIZED, THEY ARE CONMDEMNED, AND YET TODAY THE MAJORITY OF PROTESTANTS DO NOT ACCEPT IT.
AND THIS IS CLEAR SCRIPTUTRE, IMAGEN THE UNCLEAR?
THAT IS WHY THE BIBLE NEEDS A FINAL AUTHORITY. THE SUPREME COURT IS THE FINAL AUTHORITY ON THE CONSTITUTION.
OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IT IS BABEL, NO TWO PEOPLE AGREE ON ANYTHING.
CATHOLICS MIGHT DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER ON MINOR THINGS THAT ARE NOT DECIDED, HOWEVER, THEY HAVE DOCTRINES, A FOUNDATION, WHICH CAN'T BE CHANGED. [EXAMPLE: IF A LIBERAL CATHOLIC IS FOR CONTRACEPTION, I CAN TELL HIM THAT HE CEASES TO BE A CATHOLIC IF HE USES CONTRACEPTION. IT IS A SIN ALWAYS FOREBIDDEN FROM THE BEGINNING (ONAN SPILLING HIS SEED WAS STRUCK DEAD BY GOD-Gen 38:9), AND NO CATHOLIC CAN CHANGE GOD'S LAWS.]
RE: YOU’RE SAYIONG THAT "You- believe that someone who does not experience the power of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues (the "groaning" of the spirit) is not experiencing the fullness of who God is."
MY RESPONSE:
This is a novelty started in 1900. It is an example of man's pride. These people want to show that they are chosen by God, that they are special. Some are faking it, deluding themselves, others don't want to admit they don't have anything, and some are possessed.
KEEP AWAY FROM SUCH CIRCUS SIDESHOWS!
Pray very much, always ask God to not allow you to be confounded, to lead you to truth always.
"Watch ye: and pray that ye enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." (Mat 26:41)
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AMDG
October 16, 2003 06:37 PM
I am certain I did not say that it was the answer to life. I was merely commenting on the validity of the catholic church, the monolithic organization that has completely abandoned both the intent of God and significance for eternal life.
I am on the road with terrible connection and have little time to present long replies.
But the answer to life? Christ is the answer. I am His and He is mine. Life is good. :-)
October 17, 2003 05:28 PM
THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS PUT TOGETHER BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
(1) In the late Fourth Century, the Catholic Church, through her Popes and Councils, gathered together the separate books that existed in different parts of the world; sifted the false from the genuine; decisively and finally formed a catalogue of inspired and apostolic writings into which no other book should ever be admitted, and declared that these and these only, were the Sacred Scriptures of the New Testament. The authorities that were mainly responsible for thus settling and closing the 'Canon' of Holy Scripture were the Councils of Hippo and of Carthage. From that date all through the centuries this was the Christian's Bible. The Church never admitted any other.
(2) What follows from this is self evident. The same authority which made and collected and preserved these books alone has the right to claim them as her own, and to say what the meaning of them is. The Church of St Paul and St Peter and St James in the first century was the same Church as that of the Council of Carthage and of St Augustine in the fourth, and of the Council of Florence in the fifteenth, and the Vatican I in the nineteenth, one and the same body growing and developing, certainly, as every living thing must do, but still preserving its identity and remaining essentially the same body, as a man of 80 is the same person as he was at 40, and the same person at 40 as he was at 2. The Catholic Church of today, then, may be compared to a man who has grown from infancy to youth, and from youth to middle age. Suppose a man wrote a letter setting forth certain statements, whom would you naturally ask to tell what the meaning of these statements was? Surely the man that wrote it. THE CHURCH WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT; SHE AND SHE ALONE, CAN TELL US WHAT THE MEANING OF IT IS.
Again, the Catholic Church is like a person who was present at the side of Our Blessed Lord when He walked and talked in Galilee and Judea. Suppose, for a moment, that that man was gifted with perpetual and also with perfect memory, and heard all the teaching and explanations of Our Redeemer and of His Apostles, and retained them; he would be an invaluable witness and authority to consult, surely, so as to discover exactly what was the doctrine of Jesus Christ and of the Twelve. But such undoubtedly is the Catholic Church: not an individual person, but a corporate personality who lived with, indeed was called into being by, Our Divine Saviour; in whose hearing He uttered all His teaching; who listened to the Apostles in their day and generation, repeating and expounding the Saviour's doctrine; who, ever young and ever strong, has persisted and lived all through the centuries, and continues even till our own day fresh and keen in memory as ever, and able to assure us, without fear of forgetting, or mixing things up, or adding things out of his own head, what exactly Our Blessed Lord said, and taught, and meant, and did.
Therefore, I say that for people to step in 1500 years after the Catholic Church had had possession of the Bible, and to pretend that it is theirs, and that they alone know what the meaning of it is- and that the Scriptures alone without the voice of the Catholic Church explaining them, are intended by-God to be the guide and rule of faith - this is an absurd and groundless claim. Only those who are ignorant of the true history of the Sacred Scriptures-their origin and authorship and preservation could pretend that there is any logic or commonsense in such a mode of acting. And the absurdity is magnified when it is remembered that the Protestants did not appropriate the whole of -the
Catholic books, but actually cast out some from the collection (PROTESTANT BIBLES HAVE ONLY 66 BOOKS), such as had never been seen or heard of before, from the first to the sixteenth century, in any Church, either in Heaven above or on earth.
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AMDG
October 17, 2003 06:34 PM
1) “BIBLE ONLY” Contradicts Itself, Because It Is Not Taught in the Sacred Scriptures
The doctrine that the Bible alone is the only religious authority is not taught in the Bible. There is no book, chapter, or verse that demands book, chapter, and verse authority for every doctrine and practice. The Bibles never claims to be our only authority. The entire doctrine collapses because it contradicts itself.
You see, without the express command of the Bible to follow the Bible alone, “Bible only" becomes this monstrously illogical rule:
All religious truth must come from the Bible alone, except for the truth that all religious truth must come from the Bible alone!
When Jesus promised His apostles the Holy Spirit, He told them that they would preach the truth to all peoples. He never said anything to them about writing any scriptures! Jesus never alluded in any way, shape, or form, to the fact that His followers would be bound solely to a book which would later be produced.
I challenge anyone to provide a passage which tells us that we are limited to the New Testament. (By the way, you won't even find a passage that tells us there is a New Testament.)
What about the third chapter of II Timothy?
...And because from thy infancy thou bast known the holy scriptures, who can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Jesus Christ. All scripture, inspired by God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice. That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work [II Tim. 3:15-17].
You'll find that in context, this passage is speaking only about the Septuagint Old Testament. The Septuagint is the first translation of the Bible, the Greek translation of the Old Testament made from the Hebrew between 300 and 130 years before Christ. Ed]. St. Timothy was a Greek Jew, whose Scriptures were the 72 books of the Greek Old Testament. St. Paul speaks of the "holy scriptures" which Timothy had known from his "infancy." Those writings did not include the New Testament because the New Testament did not exist in Timothy's "infancy" and, in fact, would not exist in compiled form for another 300 years.
If there's a passage which teaches “bible only”, please let me know. If there's not, then the entire concept self-destructs. It fails its own test! The concept of “bible only” is simply not in the Bible..
2) "BIBLE ONLY" IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE LOGICAL FALLACY OF BEGGING THE QUESTION, INASMUCH AS SCRIPTURE NEVER IDENTIFIES WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT SCRIPTURE.
Your belief requires that every doctrine you hold be found in the pages of the Scriptures. However, the Scriptures fail to answer one all-important question: What is scripture?
When we go to the store and buy a nice leather-bound Bible, chosen as our favorite out of a hundred different bound Bibles, it's easy to forget that this is not how the Bible was originally available. The New Testament was originally 27 separate letters sent to separate people about various issues. You believe that those 27 letters, now conveniently collected into one volume, are the sole source of faith. This leads to a problem. There is no passage in any of the 27 letters which states:
"The following books, and only the following books, are Sacred Scripture: Matthew; Mark; Luke; John; Acts, I and II Romans; I and II Corinthians; Galatians; Ephesians; Philippians; Colossians; I and II Thessalonians; I and II Timothy; Titus; Philemon; Hebrews; James; I, II, and III John; Jude; and Apocalypse".
But, that's what you believe. So what's your authority? No matter what you say-"inner guidance of the Holy Spirit," "the testimony of the early Christians," "historical evidence," or even "the Catholic Church," etc.-you violate your own rule that all authority is in the Scriptures.
Few of the letters are even self-authenticating. Only the Apocalypse and, maybe, one or two of St. Paul's epistles claim to be inspired. To claim that any of the other books of the Bible is inspired forces you to violate your own rule. The Bible is silent, nonetheless you speak.
Many of the letters are anonymous. To call St. Matthew the author of Matthew or St. John the author of II John requires you to violate your rule again. The Bible never says that Matthew wrote Matthew or that John wrote John, that St. Mark wrote Mark, St. Luke wrote Luke and Acts, that St. John authored I, II, and III John, or that St. Paul composed Hebrews.
The only evidence that the traditional authors of the Gospels and Epistles mentioned in the preceding paragraph are Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul is Catholic Tradition. The only evidence that the 26 books of the New Testament are inspired, excluding the self-attesting Apocalypse, is the authoritative proclamation of the Catholic Church. You reject that authority, so with what do you replace it? The only evidence that - only the Old Testament and the 27 letters that are in our New Testament are inspired - is the authoritative proclamation of the Catholic Church. You reject that authority, so with what do you replace it?
The Catholic Church, after three centuries of thoughtful consideration, canonized the 27 books of the New Testament. Some of them, like Hebrews and the Apocalypse, were considered by some to not belong to it, but the Catholic Church declared otherwise. Other works, like I Clement, the Shepherd of Hernias, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Epistles of Ignatius, etc., which were thought by many to be inspired, were left out. We even decided to leave out St. Paul's Letter to the Laodicians, despite that he mentions it in Colossians 4:16:
And when this epistle [to the Colossians] shall have been read with you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodicians; and that you read that which is of the Laodicians (Col. 4:16).
October 17, 2003 07:38 PM
Well! Where do I begin?
Thank you Peter for your insights. I must say I agree with a lot of them. I think most protestants would.
I think you might be misunderstanding what we are saying. I do not believe that the Word of God is all we have. I believe we also have the Spirit of God (I will talk later about his manifestations you commented on). I believe people, both Catholic and Protestant, are filled with the Spirit of God, and in the process are given the Wisdom of God as well. I Corinthians 2.6ff talks about this concept.
The Church thus has the power and authority to declare the Word of God in situations where the Bible is not so clear. For instance in the matter of Abortion; the Bible says nothing about this specifically, but the Church (both Catholic and Protestant) have condemned it.
Yet the difference lies in this: I do not believe that God contradicts himself. He will not reveal to man something that contradicts what is in Scripture, his very Word. That is why we put so much emphasis on knowing scripture, because we test whatever we hear against it. You yourself said to "test" what comes my way. I assure you, that is what my Protestant forefathers did when they found some serious errors in Catholic theology (theology, I might add, that was later abandoned by the Catholic Church).
So while man, by the Spirit of God, can attain the Wisdom of God, we must be careful what we hear from man, because man is prone to err and prone to pursue selfish ends. I test whatever I hear against the Word of God, and if it does not measure up, I REJECT IT.
Point 2: Paul in the quotation from Timothy is indeed referring to the Septuagint. Yet he makes an empirical statement: "All Scripture is God breathed." And a few centuries later, as you correctly point out, the Church ordained what we have today as Scripture, the Holy Word of God. So Paul's general empirical statement applies most certainly to the New Testement by the authority God gave the Catholic Church. Surely you will not disagree that the New Testement is scripture and that it is God breathed.
As I said before, we do not reject all of what the Catholic Church has said (please stop claiming that we do!), ONLY what is contrary to the Word of God.
Point 3 - Regarding the Holy Spirit and His manifestations, I direct you to numerous places throughout the Bible, most notably the book of Acts and I Corinthians.
Acts has passages like this:
19.5-7 -- When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.
8.5-8 -- Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. And there was great joy in that city.
10.44-48 -- Wile Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
How can it be more clear? Especially from that last section? Some claim that the baptism of the Holy Spirit and other manifestations of God's power were only for the Apostles. Why then were these Gentiles filled and why did they speak in tongues?
Speaking in tongues is not a 20th century "invention." It marked the birth of the Church on Pentecost in Jerusalem as recorded in Acts 2.
If this type of speaking in tongues is only for a few, why then was everyone saved then filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?
Joel 2.28-29 says this:
"And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days
This is the era of the New Covenant (talked about in Jeremiah 31.31ff). I believe this means that because we are reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus, we are now invited to allow the Holy Spirit in our lives to do great things for His glory.
Peter, just as with any Spiritual Truth, we must approach this kind of thing with caution, and we must test the Spirits. Many out there are fakes, just as there are many fake believers in Jesus. This must not spoil our view of the rest, especially when the Word of God is so clear about such things.
Furthermore, I have not nearly begun to share all the scriptures that talk about the infilling of the Holy Spirit, so if you continue this discussion, be aware that this is not all I am basing my beliefs on.
All right! I think that is enough for now. God bless you all. Farewell.
Sincerely,
Philip Wilson
October 17, 2003 07:59 PM
Reply to Shem, the INDEPENDENT, INDIGENOUS, FUNDAMENTAL BAPTIST:
The conversion of the Native Indians of Mexico from devil-worship to the Catholic Faith was the most sudden and spectacular mass conversion in all of History.
For ten years after the Spaniards arrived in Mexico, only a small part of the Mexican people accepted Christianity. But after The Mother of God appeared to an Aztec Indian named Juan Diego, and left her portrait with him, still miraculously preserved today,and wrought innumerable miracles, nine million Mexican Indians were baptized into the Catholic Church.
Under her care to this day, and known as Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe (Our Lady of Guadalupe), she has watched over the welfare of her children of Mexico, and Central America.
AND TODAY THE NATIVE INDIAN OF MEXICO REPRESENTS OVER 90% OF THE POPULATION OF MEXICO AND SOUTH AMERICA.
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AMDG
October 17, 2003 08:32 PM
Reply to Philip,
Re: Speaking in tongues (the "groaning" of the spirit).
What I said before is accurate, what scipture says, happened 2000 years ago. Prior to 1900's, there is no recorded history of Protestants "speaking in tongues", from the time of the death of the last Apostle, till 1900.
It's the same old story, they say "the early Christians did it". WELL, NO ONE HAS ANY RECORD OF IT HAPPENING IN 1800'S, 1700'S 1100'S, 900'S ETC! THAT SHOULD BE PROOF ENOUGH THAT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE EARLY CHURCH EITHER (AFTER THE DEATH OF THE LAST APOSTLE. WHICH IS WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS ALWAYS TAUGHT).
IT IS A CIRCUS SIDE SHOW. NO REASONING PERSON WOULD FALL FOR IT. IT'S PURE EMOTIONALISM.
October 17, 2003 09:13 PM
Reply to Philip'
Regarding some other points of your message,
I understand you are a convert. You are assuming too much, you are assuming erroneously that there is agreement among Protestants, for You keep saying We. There is no such agreement, even on the most precise scripture such as Is Baptism required for salvation? So when you speak, just say "I", or quote from some Protestant scholar who agrees with you, but don't say we, because there is no one behind you.
1)YOU SAY - We only reject what is contrary to the Word of God.
MY REPLY- That's too general. Please elaborate what YOU can't accept? No need to quote scripture, just tell me what you don't like.
2) YOU SAY - (theology, I might add, that was later abandoned by the Catholic Church).
MY REPLY: What theology was later abandoned by the Church?
3) YOU SAY: "I do not believe that the Word of God is all we have. I believe we also have the Spirit of God"
MY RESPONSE: The Protestants have always said that they go by the "Bible Only", this has always been so. They ridicule the Catholic Church's teaching that the Pope is infallible (on faith and morals only. AND nothing NEW!), and yet now you are presenting to me a system whereby every indivudual is infallible. Every individual has a direct line to God.
No offense, for you are young and might not realize, but, your response, is intellectual cowardice. Whenever anyone can't come up with an answer, they can just say "God told me".
Let us all keep the discussion rational, and use reason, and not emotionalisms. The heart is a fickle thing. It must be kept under controll by reason.
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AMDG
October 28, 2003 10:08 AM
In order to show eveyone that Peter knows very little about his religion, I have taken several teachings from the new Catechism of the Catholic Church (paragraph numbers in parenthesis) to show how inconsistent they are. Within this one authority we see their teachings oppose one another.
THE PURIFICATION OF SINS
Statement - "When He (Jesus Christ) made purification for our sins, He brought us into the Fathers presence" (2777).
Contradiction - "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified... undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (1030). "The Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire" (1031).
God’s Word - “The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7).
WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS?
Statement - "God alone can forgive sins" (430).
Contradiction - "Only Priests…can forgive sins in the name of Christ" (1495). "The power to ‘bind and loose’ connotes the authority to absolve sins" (553).
God’s Word – “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (Mark 2:7).
SINNERS CAN ATONE FOR SIN?
Statement - "The sinner must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins" (1459).
Contradiction - "Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father" (615). "Christ...alone expiated our sins once for all" (1460).
God’s Word – “all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22).
WHO MERITS SALVATION?
Statement - Christ’s “most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us” (617). "Our justification comes from the grace of God" (1996).
Contradiction - "We can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life" (2027).
God’s Word – “all those who believe”… are “justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans. 3:23-24). “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).
DID CHRIST FINISH THE WORK OF REDEMPTION?
Statement - "The work of redemption is carried on" (1405).
Contradiction - "Christ fulfilled man's salvation, which brings peace to the whole universe" (624).
God’s Word - “He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption” (Hebrews 9:12).
I wonder which statements Peter believes? I would recommend he believe the Word of God, otherwise that word will condemn him on the last day (John 12:48).
June 15, 2004 05:07 PM
Comments on this site make me wonder, why bother? Religionists, whether Catholics or Protestants, are convinced they have a direct pipeline to God and that others do not. Discussion, therefore, is pointless. If one is convinced he/she is doing God's will and that others not connected to the pipeline are in error, how can their be any meaningful dialog?
March 11, 2005 04:00 AM
Where can one start???
Mike Gendron...we are all born of the Creator...the Designer…the One who knows all things…we as human beings, whom contain all aspects of other living things which the Creator hath created…are “putting His Majesty in a box”…when a Protestant cannot figure anything out on what scripture means they go by their own thoughts or emotions…and/or simply just say “God told me”…Protestants do make the Creator into a circus show of …Protestant keep the Creator under a big circus tent…and who ever does not have the right pass or doesn’t expect their “individual” ways of thinking you cannot be admitted…Protestants proclaim that everything to know about life is in the Bible…well the Bible doesn’t address many of the issues in this world which are at hand…Many Protestants throw scripture out of context…throw out history…tradition…Paul spoke of and through tradition…Paul had the Septuagint old testament…all other scripture was from tradition experience through the grace the Creator…Paul adapted to other cultural traditions to bring the Creator’s Son word…so tradition was and still should be a big part of the truth about the Designer…Protestants don’t want to believe in science…science is a of the Designer…if Paul could have and did probably did use some since of science to bring others to the Creator he would have…science is truth on many aspects and the Designer reveals that truth in His creation of the universe…may Protestant throw out a lot of things that the original churched proclaimed of the Creator. I personally believe the Bible is not the sole truth of things of this world…I believe that the Creator proclaimed on this earth His existence and love for His creation through His Son who was the Creator…but He never said that the Bible was the sole way of truth…He said He was the truth…the Word became flesh…and who ever believe in Me shall have everlasting life…not whom ever should believe in these books put together by man and written and recorded by man they shall have everlasting life. The Bible is more a guide to what the Creator did for the Salvation of human beings…a witness to what happen…and believe the Christ died for our sins and was risen on the third day…a memo to all that this has happen the Creator has saved us from ourselves (sin and the evil one) and loves us after all…and who ever rejects that it did happen well truth and life is not open to them…unless they walk in the steps of Christ the Creator…Also I wanted to point out that some stories were old “folklore” of Jews, Greek ect…and many Protestant don’t realize that and use it as the Creator’s own word…which it actually was made up by man and was used to answer things that could not be answered…hmmm…like the Stories Paul used to bring Christ to the Gentiles and Jews…because he knew old traditions and legends to help them understand what had happened and who Christ was and is in their lives…Many Protestants don’t want to believe the some stories are myths used to draw many to the Creator. The Protestants also use the Bible as if it was the “newly discovered secret of life” and throw scripture out of context and use it for their on errorous thoughts and ideologies and emotion. Many don’t understand science so they throw it out…SCEINCE IS OF THE CREATOR…many throw out science simply because its not in the Bible…well guys science was in the Bible…its just Protestants and many others are to ignorant or arrogant to search for the truth of how science is with the scriptures…well guys bacteria does evolve every day…mutations happen every day on large scale and small…evolution is not of the devil…evolution is of the Creator…medicine is of the Creator…gene therapy is of the Creator…stem cell research would and will benefit many children, teenager, elderly who are dying of illnesses that could be cured through stem cell research if allowed to be pursued…the Creator has allowed us as human beings to gain knowledge from which He left to us…all of Creation is GOOD>>>>the heart of man is not evil…but Good…just corrupted by the lies of the evil one…for all that the Designer created was Good…so many scientist have dictated their lives for the “well being” of human beings…with the Help of the Creator…Research is of the Creator…not everything is stored in a book of the past…for the Creator is of the Past, Present, and Future…so don’t put the Creator in a box …and many other things you cannot find in the Bible…many Protestants are closed minded…and you don’t have to “speak in tongues” in order to experience the fullness of the Creator…go out and run in the country side where life is not distributed by man and you can experience the fullness of the Creator through His creation without speaking in tongues…Jesus never or was never quoted that He spoke in tongues…Paul speaks of it but Paul was a man like all of us full of emotion…Paul was inspired…but Paul also never mentioned that if one was to experience the fullness of the Creator one had to speak in tongues. Be my guess speak in tongues but do it behind close doors…don’t show boat around dumping your ideologies, laws on others and acting as a Pharisees do. And yes protestants a good man who wanted peace for his countrymen and all other countries surrounding him…Gandhi was a and is a man of the Creator through His Son. Gandhi was not Christian but he followed truth, peace through the Creator who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…whom are ONE…not three…so Gandhi followed the One God who was of Truth and Peace and Gandhi did and fought for that. I love Jesus as much as any other Catholic and Protestant but try my best not to put Him in a BOX OR BOOK>>>>>>>>FOR THE CREATOR>>>>WAS AND CHRIST WAS THE CREATOR>>>>HE WAS HERE BEFORE A BOOK OR BOX>>>or ORGANIZATIONS LIKE YOURS>>>>SO DON’T place HIS MAJESTY IN A BOX OR BOOK>>>SOLELY TO satisfy your ideologies…and emotions.
In Him Christ the Creator,
Dan…salvation was for all men…not just your fellow Protestant brother…
P.S. just my comment…in general…
May 9, 2005 07:13 AM
Revelation is what every man needs, "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you"(Matt.7:7). I was desperate for God to help me, and I laid down on an altar in the Catholic church, and said, "God, I give up". The heavens seemed to open, and peace came into my heart. Thru many confirmations, I started seeing spiritually like I never did before as a Catholic all my life. Here at age 37 and failing to live a Christian life like I knew I should, I truly invited Jesus to become Lord and Savior of my life. I repented for my sins directly to God. I attended Catholic grade school, high school, and graduated form a Catholic college. I had never heard of being "born again". Jesus said, "truly I say unto you, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"(John 3:3).From an early age, I had never had victory over sin in my life. I had made many many confessios to priests with the same sins over and over. When I recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit, I recieved the power to overcome these sins that plagued my life for 25 years. When I read Romans 10:9-10, I knew that my salvation was secure in Jesus Christ, and all fear of death left me. I was free! PTL!!! That was 28 years ago. "Whom the Lord sets free, is free indeed"(Rom. 8:36). I am a sinner saved by grace (Eph.2:9). I pray the the eyes of your understanding will be opened (Eph. 1:18) as mine were when I surrendered to God on that altar. You can make an altar right there were you are right now. Simple humble yourself to God. Say a prayer
with your mouth from your heart. Ask God to forgive you for all your sins, and invite Jesus Christ to come in and be your personal Lord and Savior of your life. Read what you did now. (Rom. 10:9-10) Now thank God for sending his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to come and die for your sins, so that you can have eternal life with him(John 3:16). The bible says, " For by grace you are saved through faith and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast"(Eph.2:8-9). Have you done this? Do it right now! If you did it by faith and meant it, then you are saved for eternity. You simply believed and recieved God's love and grace today. Congradulations! Get a bible and look up these verses. Then begin reading the bible on a daily basis and you will start hearing from God, and you will have begun forming a relationship with your maker. I suggest to begin with St. John's grospel and the psalms. God will begin speaking to you. He really loves you. I pray you have opened your heart to him and invited him to take over your life. God bless you.
May 9, 2005 07:13 AM
Revelation is what every man needs, "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you"(Matt.7:7). I was desperate for God to help me, and I laid down on an altar in the Catholic church, and said, "God, I give up". The heavens seemed to open, and peace came into my heart. Thru many confirmations, I started seeing spiritually like I never did before as a Catholic all my life. Here at age 37 and failing to live a Christian life like I knew I should, I truly invited Jesus to become Lord and Savior of my life. I repented for my sins directly to God. I attended Catholic grade school, high school, and graduated form a Catholic college. I had never heard of being "born again". Jesus said, "truly I say unto you, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"(John 3:3).From an early age, I had never had victory over sin in my life. I had made many many confessios to priests with the same sins over and over. When I recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit, I recieved the power to overcome these sins that plagued my life for 25 years. When I read Romans 10:9-10, I knew that my salvation was secure in Jesus Christ, and all fear of death left me. I was free! PTL!!! That was 28 years ago. "Whom the Lord sets free, is free indeed"(Rom. 8:36). I am a sinner saved by grace (Eph.2:9). I pray the the eyes of your understanding will be opened (Eph. 1:18) as mine were when I surrendered to God on that altar. You can make an altar right there were you are right now. Simple humble yourself to God. Say a prayer
with your mouth from your heart. Ask God to forgive you for all your sins, and invite Jesus Christ to come in and be your personal Lord and Savior of your life. Read what you did now. (Rom. 10:9-10) Now thank God for sending his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to come and die for your sins, so that you can have eternal life with him(John 3:16). The bible says, " For by grace you are saved through faith and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast"(Eph.2:8-9). Have you done this? Do it right now! If you did it by faith and meant it, then you are saved for eternity. You simply believed and recieved God's love and grace today. Congradulations! Get a bible and look up these verses. Then begin reading the bible on a daily basis and you will start hearing from God, and you will have begun forming a relationship with your maker. I suggest to begin with St. John's grospel and the psalms. God will begin speaking to you. He really loves you. I pray you have opened your heart to him and invited him to take over your life. God bless you.
July 21, 2007 01:48 PM
Greetings:
Peter is a typical defender of the faith, not of the faith of light but the faith that it takes to except the numerous errors of the papacy. The gospel is the gospel, no man needs a priest or the pope, to be saved. Such as the man on the cross next to Jesus. Peter also in his post neglected to complete the verse he referred to in 1 Peter chapter 3, the verse goes on to say NOT BY water, BUT a CLEAR conscience towards God. A baby cannot have a clear conscience, as he has not as an adult lived a sinnful life. Religion is a farce, never has contained pure truth! Intimacy from the God of light, is whom the Lord seeks. The light clearly shows the papacy has a history of darkness from the popes down, Gods word exposes the harlot. Psalms 119 HOW CAN a man keep his way BY THE WORD OF GOD. not by the tainted traditions of ROme.